Micah, Shermer claims to be a social Libertarian and acknowledges that some of what Rand says is sensible. But he devotes a chapter to her in his book "Why People Believe Weird Things."
Stossel is a reporter and as such his personal views are not especially relevant. Krimel --------------------------- Krimel, I agree with the last paragraph, which was precisely my point and therefore makes your post extremely relevant to mine. Stossel is a big Rand fan, be careful. Micah ------------------------ Micah, Society provides specific ways that inborn traits can or should be appropriately expressed. The fact that we form into social groups at all is a function of our genetic heritage, as is the fact that we are able to rationalize excuses and construct moral codes for what we do. You could shock a bird every time it flapped its wings and override its biological urge to fly. This would not alter the fact of its genetic program, only the ways in which that program is expressed. Intellectual quality is basically impotent. It means nothing. We say things and believe things that conform to our individual predispositions. We feel things much more powerfully than we intellectualize them. People will persist in beliefs even in the face of clear evidence that they are wrong. Shermer was part of a program call the Power of Belief with John Stossel. It showed several examples of this. One example had to do with nurses who practice therapeutic touch, where they run their hands over their patents without actually touching them. They claim to be able to feel the negative energy in patients and to be about to direct positive healing energy through their hands. A nine year old girl did a science project on this. Stossel said, "She asked practitioners of therapeutic touch to feel the energy from her hand. But first, she had them put their hands through a towel and a piece of cardboard so they couldn't see where her hand was." She asked them which hand the subjects thought her hand was over. They failed miserably but continued to maintain the validity of the practice. The younger researcher said her subjects were not embarrassed by the results of the test, "Some thought if you got four out of 10 right, they thought you'd pass. And obviously, they didn't know their statistics." The program presented several every similar examples including the placebo effect, fire walking, voodoo, astrology, alternative medicine and experiments with magical thinking in young children. As far back as the 1600's Francis Bacon noted the importance of putting belief to the test and an antidote for this. Following his lead, science seeks after what is true, regardless of point of view. This is why objectivity is important. Belief is also important. Faith is meaningful but if neither can stand up to testing they are little more than prejudice. I know this is not specifically addressed to what you said and to that extent it is not specifically addressed to you. It points more to those of a mystical persuasion who would claim that the subjective claims of mystics can somehow be objectified. As Stossel points out the shear power of belief frequently overrides clear evidence that contradicts it. Rational thinking is a higher form of consciousness that has recently evolved and often has to work very hard to overcome the lower emotional and spiritual levels that have a much strong pull over what we think and how we act. Krimel -------------------- Krimel, Saying we are born with morality we cannot change is biological quality, saying how morals function as a result of societal pressure, which Shermer is clearly speaking of, is social quality; but choosing morals, regardless of society and overriding your gut feeling of morality is intellectual quality. Micah Micah, Actually since he is saying morality is something we are born with, I would call it biological quality. But then I have never thought that line was clearly drawn. The intellectual quality of morality would be little more than gingerbread on the headboat. Krimel -------------------- SA, There are morals of intellectual quality, social quality, and biological quality. Shermer's is a study of social quality morals. Micah moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
