[gav] before i go on a clarification: 'god' here refers to any transcendent, eternal aspect of the universe, personified or not. this aspect may be taken as an implicate order that informs the explicate order of the temporal universe.
[Krimel] How does this clarify anything? What suggests that anything in the universe has the properties of transcendence or eternal aspect? What is meant by these terms? [gav] this clarification moves us closer to a better understanding of the question. firstly it allows for a more exact logical positing of the problem by letting us imagine the possibility of the existence of such a thing as 'god'. [Krimel] Lack of clarity aside, why would any of this lead to thinking about a "thing"? [gav] secondly it allows us to logically deduce the methods by which we may gain the knowledge necessary to confirm or deny the proposition. [Krimel] After 3,000 years of haggling finally the answer so many have sought! [gav] if god is atemporal, eternal, then he/she/it is unknowable in time. time is a function of conscious awareness. therefore it is logically impossible to grasp 'god' through the mind, the psyche, the limited consciousness of the self. we cannot logically comprehend 'god' as we would comprehend that which is temporal. mathematics is the formal language of the temporal, of nature, of manifest reality. [Krimel] "If?" By what stretch of the imagination have we arrived at an "if" statement? How does it follow even given your "if" that whatever the if is it is unknowable? If it is unknowable who gives a crap? If you construct your if statements properly it is possible to logically conclude whatever you like. Especially if there is no way to verify the conclusion. By the way mathematical statements are not limited to the temporal or even to the manifest. There are branches of mathematics that deal with time and transcend time and there are branches that deal totally with abstractions that have nothing whatever to do with manifest reality. [gav] but we have more options. firstly we can suggest that the existence of immaterial forces acting upon matter is a scientific given. secondly we can add that because these energies travel at the speed of light they are therefore atemporal. [Krimel] Immaterial forces? What forces to you mean? Unless you mean the forces identified in nature already, what effect could they have on matter. If they had an effect, the effect would already be identified. Not all of the forces of nature travel at the speed of light. Gravity seems to be instantaneous. I don't think the weak force or the strong force travel far enough to have their speed measured. It is always a pleasure to have you chime in, gav. Not trying to piss you off but this needs clarification. moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
