Yes we seem to have fun explaining this topic, but the software does
do the right thing from a fuzzy logic project management task break
down approach.

Let's have a little philosophy of the methods discussion I think that
will help you see what CSA does what it does.

We have 2 scheme's

(a) Hierarchal is a method that uses and arithmetic progression down
the tree using addition. That method assumes that all tasks are rated
against the universe at large on a fixed scale. This is traditional
prioritization with a few necessities for making mass changes and
boost whole groups with the goals functions and a little hierarchal
smoothing thrown in.  This method is great if you have less than 200
tasks and if you are disciplined and consistent I bet you can do 500
without tiring of the effort of prioritizing correctly. This method is
Andrey's baby and it works great for what it was designed to do. I
like it! and so do a lot of people.

(b) CSA is a method, that use an arithmetic progress down the tree
using multiplication of logarithmic reversible number pairs to
calculate a relative priority based on minimal data entered around a
localized position in the tree. (sounds sexy doesn't it? or just Bs?
actually it just some math theory that happens to be pretty it's a
GLOB Sorter if you want to get technical it cluster "like data" into
groups of similar values ).  Under this model you set each tasks
Importance and urgency relative to it's immediate parent only. How
important and how urgent is this individual task to completing the
parent task; and only the parent task; not the project at a whole,
that's the KEY the parent task only.  That allows for faster data
entry within huge outlines with 500 to 5000s of tasks.  Because you
don't have to evaluate the task against your whole life; just it's
importance and urgency to the parent task, and when it's do. That is
localized positioning. IF you set your values that way the CSA will
give you very accurate results for priorities. I know I've been using
it for almost 10 years as lifebalance uses a simpler form of this
approach and I started on that tool in 98. This scheme is designed
specifically for people that have to make decisions about what gets
done AND what does NOT get done. Just because it's due today doesn't
mean it should be done. If figuring out which tasks should even be
reviewed on a give day is a challenge, then CSA is the method you
want. The CSA gets you a nice list of likely suspects to review. This
lines up nicely with GTD that says to own you own intuitive
prioritizations, so we often recommend CSA to GTDers' because it make
a first WHACK at you list for you; and reduces the number of items you
have to consider for you final selection of the correct task to do.
The problems usually creep in when people try to use CSA in a manner
other than intended; it will not make your decisions for you and it
won't process a really short list all that effectively that's why tiny
short lists give weird results; it wasn't designed to do what people
often try to  test.  It's also not a GANTT chart and it won't schedule
time linear linked tasks; if you need that see MS project and numerous
other tools or fall back to Hierarchal. CSA  will always get the top
15-25 things to do in the right cluster at the top of the list out of
1000s of tasks. That's what it's designed to do. Get you a todo list
where the top screen without scrolling down at all has the things that
should be review and action'ed as necessary. The order of that screen
will never be perfect because only your intuition at the time of
choosing will tell you which of the top 15 things is the right one to
do right now right here.

That's what the method does. It really can't be bent to do other
things. But people loose site of that and start to blend the two
different methods characteristics. I you expect the computed todo list
to be ordered 1, 2, 3 ,4 exactly like you are expecting it you will be
disappointed. Don't pound nails with a screw driver; use Hierarchal
instead.

The anomalies I was fixing this week where messing up the output of
the data; and that was true of both large data sets and small data
sets. People do get confused when I jump in to fix something when that
conversation started out as a discussion of a short list. I'm usually
not trying to fix the short list results. Rather I see something that
makes me realize there is a problem with the core approach for it's
intended goal.



On Jul 15, 5:16 pm, RichardCollings <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Bob
>
> Thanks very much for taking the time to reply in such detail.  I can
> undertand your reluctance to go over ground that was clearly covered
> in some detail some time ago (before I got involved with MLO).
>
> I would be very interested to know if one of the sliders does not
> apply a recursive boost because this is what I want (desparately).
>
> What is frustrating for me is that when I have posted previously on
> this topic nobody has been able to explain the reasoning behing the
> recursive boost - why from a project planning/business point of view,
> lower level leaf tasks in a hierarchical structure should be made more
> important than other leaf tasks that appear higher up in the
> hierarchy?
>
> ie: Going back to my example:
>
> > > > > Project A
> > > > >    Task 1
> > > > >    Task 2
> > > > >       Task 3
> > > > >       Task 4
>
> why should Tasks 3 and 4 be made more important than Task 1 when I
> boost Project A?
>
> I agree that there are lots of different ways of exploiting the
> algorithm but there does not appear to be a way of handling my simple
> requirement which is
>
> <<When I boost a top level task,  I want all the subtasks to receive
> the same level of boost irrespective of their depth in the hierarchy
> below that higher level task.  ie: they retain their relatively levels
> of importance/urgency>>
>
> This does not seem an unreasonable request.   Incidentally, I am
> pretty certain that the hierarchical scoring method does meet this
> requirement.
>
> If you can throw any more light on this, I would be very grateful.
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Richard
>
> On Jul 15, 10:15 pm, ratz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Honestly.....I'd have to go look again; I really haven't thought about
> > urgency in a long time. I believe after thinking about it that
> > importance is recursive and urgency is not but I will check an make a
> > authoritative statement. later. ( I was working in a different part of
> > the algorithm that runs in parrallel so I didn't have to concern
> > myself with thinking about the urgency topic)
>
> > I will say that it's highly unlikely we'll change the way urgency
> > works because it does what it was suppose to do and and people expect
> > it to do what it does now. So don't spend a ton of time formulating an
> > argument; we've been through that 4 years ago.
>
> > Fixing the weekly goal is the only real topic open for discussion.
> > I'll review urgency only so much as finding the right way to fix the
> > weekly goal issue my above thoughts were open thinking on the fly that
> > doesn't mean they are the correct solution; just me thinking out loud;
> > only so much as the weekly goal issue is concerned and sometimes I
> > draw bad ideas when doing that; we sort through that when I try and
> > implement them.
>
> > Completely separate from thoughts of the weekly goal
>
> > If urgency as implemented isn't to your liking you have several
> > options:
>
> > 1) Don't use the urgency slider
> > 2) Set the preference to by importance only
> > 3) Use the hierarchal priority method
>
> > That should suffice for anyone's needs;  the program has got so many
> > different ways to tweak the priority that it is silly. And this this
> > program has too many options already and we can't bend the algorithms
> > to everyone's whims or the program would be unfathomable to new users.
>
> > The additive approach your suggesting really isn't' in the cards for
> > the design.; that's what the weekly goal was suppose to do and it
> > doesn't work because it's really really hard to track it down the tree
> > as you recurse. lots of stack space and speed issues and plenty of
> > places to make mistakes; and it confuses people... really trust me it
> > does; the last time we went over this everyone had trouble keeping the
> > additive and multiplicative properties straight during the discussion
> > and much arguing and crying occurred.
>
> > I go off to think about it some more. maybe something simple and
> > elegant will occur to me ... no promises.
>
> > On Jul 15, 3:22 pm, "Richard Collings" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Hi Bob
>
> > > Thanks for the detailed reply.   I have a question and then an observation
> > > re:
>
> > > > The weekly goal was an option carried over from the
> > > > Hierarchal Method; that just got grafted into the CSA.
>
> > > > It simply affects Urgency; and it's from before the urgency
> > > > slider was added. It was a way to make something urgent.  
> > > > It's going to be very sensitive to outline depth. It was
> > > > designed to drive things deep in the outline to the top and
> > > > it's a very old feature.
>
> > > Does this mean that boosting the Urgency of a top level task will also
> > > generate a depth related boost down the tree below that task - ie that the
> > > urgency boost of the top level task is applied recursively down the tree
> > > (once to the top level task, twice to its children,  three times to their
> > > children and so on).
>
> > > If so, then this just doesn't work for me.   Taking my example again:
>
> > > > > Project A
> > > > >    Task 1
> > > > >    Task 2
> > > > >       Task 3
> > > > >       Task 4
>
> > > If I boost the urgency of A,  I would like Tasks 1,  3 and 4 to all 
> > > receive
> > > the same boost and not to suddenly find that Tasks 3 and 4 appear above 
> > > Task
> > > 1.    I just cannot see the logic of this - all I have said is that A is 
> > > now
> > > more urgent.  Why should Tasks 3 and 4 then suddenly become more important
> > > than Task 1?
>
> > > If this recursive boosting is the case, then I would make a strong plea 
> > > for
> > > this behaviour to be made optional - ie: to have 'Switch off recursive
> > > boosting' (or similar) which when ticked will result in the boost just 
> > > being
> > > applied once to the Task in question and to all the children and their
> > > children, etc.
>
> > > Many thanks
>
> > > Richard- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
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