Dalibor’s information is surprisingly candid. He is also quite correct that there are many operations such as this which are extremely labor intensive. His videos are very educational and tell you a lot about what it will take to even begin to make Nixies. The investment to justify more automation is based on volume production and the ability to reach a “critical mass” where production volumes and demand at a market price will generate sufficient capital to purchase machinery and support the overhead of a highly specialized operation. The economics of such a market do not exist (IMHO) for anything beyond a “boutique” or “cottage” industry, as we call them. There is certainly sufficient economy to support small operations such as Dalibor’s but I think that mass producing tubes simply does not have the demand that it would take to get the price down to the price levels suggested.
Forgetting about the economics, it has taken Dalibor 5 years of hard work to learn some of the lost art of producing a product which actually requires a great deal of expertise in materials, gasses and a level of cleanliness that he is just discovering. I come from the semiconductor industry where I learned that the electrical design of the chip is actually only a very small fraction of what it takes to make a viable product. The physics of the materials and the manufacturing skills required to maintain such an operation demand that there be a market for billions of parts. For reliability, one will never get past very low production and yield without the knowledge and ability to control the cleanliness of the manufacturing environment and material content. It is very surprising that Dalibor has been able to achieve as much as he has demonstrated in such a short time. If you study any high tech product, you either stay small and specialized or you get big and produce a incredible quantities for a market that is demanding it. The reason that nixies were displaced in the first place is because there was market demand for a much more efficient, mass producible product such as the LED display. Those did not happen overnight, either. I was selling low performance LED displays in the 70’s which were still succeeding against nixies on reliability, but mostly on the ease of use in designs. Nixies are a specialty that is for a niche market that is consuming them based on the look and is willing to pay a higher price for something unique. In other words, I don’t see a mass market because I can’t name enough advantages for a Nixie display over another technology. Business decisions are not made just because a product looks cool. There are too many cons for use of Nixies in modern day commercial products. There will, however, be a good market for Nixies among the hobby builders and retro aficionados. The market could support a few operations like Dalibor’s. So, when someone comes up with a RELIABLE $25 nixie tube that looks good, I will buy a bunch. And I would do it quickly because at that price, I know that the seller will run out of money very fast… Jeff From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dalibor Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 2:17 PM To: neonixie-l Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes Hello! I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of someone who spent last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-) IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so cheap, even in 60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8 (equal to today's $64) when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no mercury. Large tube (B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the nixie tubes were cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R&D engineers and whole tube backing industry. They were produced in large quantities for lot of equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for digital clocks, they were simply expensive for consumer market. You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly russian tubes - their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists willing to pay for it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large volumes in soviet central planned economy, even when the demand was decreasing - this is why there are still full stocks of them in former soviet countries. You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont have much new technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The use of computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new technologies like laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction, jigs..). There are tens of operations involved in the assembly/sealing/pumping procedures - the quantity of machines needed for automated line would be big and their price very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few $M would be necessary just for the machinery. You would also soon find that automation make demands on supplier's tolerances ( e.g. glass thickness, diameter) which is beyond their standard production capabilities = back to hand processing.. This is one of the reason why large factories like Blackburn had own facilities for production of all the raw materials/prefabs. Last year, I had a meeting with people from german company producing glassworking machines - simple semiautomated machine just for sealing operation (stem/envelope) which still needs operator starts at $250.000 and its production capacity is not so high (my estimation was 30 tubes/hour). And this is one of very few pieces of equipment you can purchase, the rest is necessary to develop - according to your specifications and process description. But even if you had a fully equiped factory now, it would take you long time to get to working nixie tubes. It is not about machines, but about the operator/R&D - you need to know when the tube is sufficiently degassed before filling, what purity of the raw material is necessary, purity of the gases, time for aging etc.. Many factors, each of them can make your tube prone to failure. Not immediately, but after year of operation for instance - your backers will not wait years until you come up with working combination.. Some data from our business: - Our price for a tube is now set to $145. - We make around 130 tubes per month (+ handful of clocks) with monthly revenue of around 20.000 USD. - We are now a team of 5 people and this production volume makes us really busy (I work 7 days a week, all day long). - We need 250 square meters (2700sqft) of space for our current equipment. - As for the "butique price" - my monthly net salary is $384, I get paid since February 2017 ;-) But my people's salary is above average (for a given profession and our region). - I invested around $80.000 from my personal savings on the beginning I know that if I want to really succeed and earn money, I need to cut down the production costs. So I am step by step making our manufacture efficient with the intention to make our nixie tubes less expensive one day. I am investing our profit back to tooling/equipment, I am for example working on a high vacuum rotary manifold for carousel pumping machine with higher production capacity. I recently reverse-engineered Philips vacuum locking mechanism (tube clamping) for the same machine. But I am not sure if it is possible to make nixie tubes for below $60-80 even with high level of automation. I hope it doesnt sound too discouraging ;-) just my $0.02 best regards, Dalibor Farny On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 11:52:06 UTC+2, Aiden Koh wrote: I'm a product engineer taking on a new project. With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc). I don't compromise on quality. hence, it will be built with parts mostly sourced from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified. However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with the project when I know that there is enough interest. What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within our grasp! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/7b6b98ca-36c7-42e5-a93f-9099a6830ca6%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/7b6b98ca-36c7-42e5-a93f-9099a6830ca6%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. 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