Actually, musing on it further, you might have a bit of a problem with the 74141 and dekatrons. I suspect the chip output transistors won't have a high enough Vceo to cope if you try to use the typical dekatron anode voltages. Likely you're either going to need to play around to run the tube at lower anode voltages (not sure that'll work very well) or switch to a mixture of logic and discrete components - something along the lines of a 7442 driving MPSA42 (you'll need an inverter between them).
The GR10A is the best option here I think - that should work fine with 74141. Jon. On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 3:16:35 PM UTC Jon wrote: > >Can a Dekatron be driven like a Nixie from a 74141 instead of using the > steering electrodes? > > I've not actually done the experiment in the way that you say, but the > answer should be 'yes'. You'll need a selector dekatron though where all > the main cathodes are brought out to their own individual pins. So GS10C / > 6476 / A101 for example rather than GC10B / 6802 / OG4. > > There is actually a dekatron-lookalike, the GR10A, which is designed to be > used like this - it's essentially a GS10C without the guide electrodes > (different base, but that's a detail). > > Jon. > > On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 2:38:21 PM UTC bung...@gmail.com wrote: > >> Alex; you are missing the point. Neither of the circuits shown in various >> data sheets work properly! >> The circuit that does work and the one I'm using has the capacitor >> connected to the other side of the resistor. >> A quick question so it does not get lost below: Can a Dekatron be driven >> like a Nixie from a 74141 instead of using the steering electrodes? >> >> [image: 8453_LR.jpg] >> [image: 8453 Board_LR.jpg] >> Each tube has its own small circuit board that connects to a PIC on my >> power supply by a 6 wire (+5v, Gnd, 4 BCD) harness. and by a separate two >> wire harness if High Voltage is needed (the 2 pin 0.2" spacing header on >> the perfboard above). My wires are fed through a hole and loop down to be >> soldered to provide strain relief. All boards mount on two spacers. Some >> mount directly on the back of the tube if space allows. Any board can be >> removed in less than a minute, usually 2 screws but 4 screws where the >> board is not attached to the tube, then pull one or two connectors. >> [image: Wiring_LR.jpg] >> The E1T tube does not count in sync with the others because it is >> clocked, not fed by the common BCD bus. It takes time for the filaments to >> warm up so it needs a reset every decade to get it in sync. However it >> cannot count backwards without a lot of effort I'm not about to expend so >> it stays like this. The hole below is for LED displays. >> [image: Display Demo_LR.jpg] >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 3:38 AM Alex <ajlg...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Just a thought, maybe the diodes originally used had a much different >>> reverse leakage which, in half wave rectified setup, caused the polarity in >>> the tube to flip slightly - at low leakage current levels - and thus >>> extinguish it more cleanly between ripples. Modern(!) silicon (verses >>> germanium) may be too sharp for it? I think your full wave design is >>> probably best anyhow, the half wave was likely a cost compremise! >>> - Alex >>> >>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 20:08:35 UTC bung...@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> I tried Rk at 12k and 22k and it is still erratic. >>>> Next I went back to full wave and connected it to my display chassis >>>> that runs from a PIC that counts at various speeds. I see the circuit only >>>> counts slowly but at 10/sec it fails. No flickering, it just does not >>>> count. >>>> I changed the capacitor to the other side of Rk and it works perfectly. >>>> I can't believe it is a typo carried through three documents but >>>> companies have been known to intentionally place errors to cause grief to >>>> anyone trying to steal their designs. >>>> This circuit works. >>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>> >>>> On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 12:47:29 PM UTC-5 Dekatron42 wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks, I've never looked at that particular datasheet previously, >>>>> only the Philips ones even though I have a few Amperex stamped Z550M's. >>>>> >>>>> In this document: https://www.dos4ever.com/Z550M/Z550M2.pdf (a >>>>> somewhat clearer PDF can be downloaded here: >>>>> http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/Z550M_2.pdf) there is >>>>> a paragraph on "Supply voltage" on page 120 where they mention a minimum >>>>> repetition frequency of 80 pulses per second as a minmum for proper >>>>> operation - perhaps that is the reason why it doesn't work as well on >>>>> just >>>>> half wave rectification. Maybe Amperex had some specially made to be able >>>>> to drive them at 117 VAC @ 60Hz? >>>>> >>>>> /Martin >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 17:56:07 UTC+1 bung...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Martin; See attached for data sheet. I have tried different >>>>>> capacitors. They make no difference for either full wave or half wave - >>>>>> full wave always works with no indication of problems and half wave >>>>>> flickers all over the place and never works (unless I move the capacitor >>>>>> connection). >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill van Dijk: I am in Canada, 60 Hz. Control grid?? See data sheet >>>>>> attached. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was hoping someone else would have tried these circuits. I have >>>>>> used a 'scope to check the various signals and they look fine. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 9:06 AM Dekatron42 <martin....@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Which datasheet do you use? I only have information with the full >>>>>>> wave rectifier. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What happens if you use a 470nF or 1uF capacitor with the half wave >>>>>>> rectifier? I made some quick LTSpice simulations which shows that a >>>>>>> higher >>>>>>> capacitor might work as the voltage seems to fall low enough between >>>>>>> each >>>>>>> period, but only real tests can show if that works properly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 14:13:47 UTC+1 bung...@gmail.com >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Martin, I changed the circuit back to halfwave using a single >>>>>>>> diode from the bridge rectifier and changing the capacitor. This was >>>>>>>> absolute minimum change without moving anything else. Back came the >>>>>>>> erratic flashing. So it's not the diode. It just does not like half >>>>>>>> wave. >>>>>>>> My circuits are direct copies from the data sheet. >>>>>>>> Peter >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 5:21 PM Dekatron42 <martin....@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nice that it works! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My understanding is that they need rectified AC, with just a >>>>>>>>> little smoothing so as not to make it a pure DC voltage, as they >>>>>>>>> extinguish >>>>>>>>> during the portion of the voltage when it is to low to maintain the >>>>>>>>> glow, >>>>>>>>> and they are re-ignited when the voltage rise again as long as a >>>>>>>>> trigger >>>>>>>>> electrode has the correct voltage to initiate a glow, much like a >>>>>>>>> thyratron. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe you can find the reason for it working now compared to >>>>>>>>> earlier failures if you check the voltage across the >>>>>>>>> Anode-Cathode-Ignition >>>>>>>>> electrode with an oscilloscope? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've also had some problems with CMOS ic's when I have had poor, >>>>>>>>> or no, connection to VCC/GND on the power pins - the circuit worked >>>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>>> well until I touched some pins. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 21:50:49 UTC+1 bung...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have solved the problem but I don't understand why. >>>>>>>>>> Having tried all the suggestions except this, I went to a full >>>>>>>>>> wave rectifier. It is not quite the same as the data sheet but does >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same thing. >>>>>>>>>> It also has the capacitor connected per the data sheet, the same >>>>>>>>>> as my half wave circuit that did not work. >>>>>>>>>> This is rock solid with no indication of any other flickering. I >>>>>>>>>> am using the first (worst) tube. Touching the glass has no effect. >>>>>>>>>> Apparently the tube does not like half wave. Perhaps it was my >>>>>>>>>> 1N4007 diode? They can switch too fast and maybe it needed a snubber. >>>>>>>>>> I also tried DC from a variable regulated power supply (HP 6448B up >>>>>>>>>> to 600 volt@1.5 amp, and no, I did not go that far). That locked >>>>>>>>>> the display on one digit. The data sheet says it needs rectified >>>>>>>>>> line, not >>>>>>>>>> DC. >>>>>>>>>> I am running my tests from an HP supply for the 5v and an >>>>>>>>>> isolation transformer driven by a Variac for the AC so I have full >>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>> of all voltages. >>>>>>>>>> This is my final schematic. It is driven by a PIC with parallel >>>>>>>>>> connectors for each display. I used a PIC to generate the BCD >>>>>>>>>> because CMOS >>>>>>>>>> would not drive the three 74141 for the Nixies. The PIC counts up >>>>>>>>>> and down >>>>>>>>>> at varying speeds which would have been more difficult with CMOS. >>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:33 AM Dekatron42 <martin....@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Touching the glass means that you get a capacitive coupling >>>>>>>>>>> which will upset them somewhat, there was a special socket made for >>>>>>>>>>> this by >>>>>>>>>>> Philips which has a partial metal screen surrounding the tube. The >>>>>>>>>>> socket >>>>>>>>>>> is nicknamed "der Kuss" , "The kiss", due to its form. I couldn't >>>>>>>>>>> find a >>>>>>>>>>> photo on the Internet now but I know it exists as I have some in my >>>>>>>>>>> storage >>>>>>>>>>> and in an instrument that uses them. That instrument is called >>>>>>>>>>> PW4261 >>>>>>>>>>> Timer, some photos of the externals can be found on the Internet. >>>>>>>>>>> On this >>>>>>>>>>> socket all of the resistors are mounted flush to the pins to >>>>>>>>>>> minimize the >>>>>>>>>>> distance, but the capacitors and power supply is mounted some 40cm >>>>>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>>>>> tubes themselves, likewise there are long wires to the drivers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You can also have a look at the manual for the PW4231 which I >>>>>>>>>>> scanned that can be downloaded from here: >>>>>>>>>>> https://frank.pocnet.net/other/sos/Philips_PW4232.pdf if that >>>>>>>>>>> can help you with the voltages for the drivers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 15:50:55 UTC+1 >>>>>>>>>>> bung...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I meant dekatron in my last reply to gregebert. >>>>>>>>>>>> I have 3 of these tubes, all apparently new (NOS). >>>>>>>>>>>> Per your suggestion I tried the other two. One is almost >>>>>>>>>>>> perfect but flashes the 2 a bit when 8 is selected. The third is >>>>>>>>>>>> perfect >>>>>>>>>>>> unless I hold the tube in my fingers by the glass where I get lots >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> random flashing. >>>>>>>>>>>> Remember that the really bad one works perfectly with >>>>>>>>>>>> the capacitor moved as I mentioned. I don't know if touching the >>>>>>>>>>>> glass >>>>>>>>>>>> affects it. >>>>>>>>>>>> More later, I will be away this morning. >>>>>>>>>>>> Peter. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 2:10 AM Dekatron42 < >>>>>>>>>>>> martin....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you tried the circuit in the J.B Dance book below? Here >>>>>>>>>>>>> they use a center tapped transformer and also a much lower value >>>>>>>>>>>>> capacitor, >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 33nF versus 250nF in your circuit - I've only evere seen >>>>>>>>>>>>> 33nF used in >>>>>>>>>>>>> real instruments using these indicators. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Quite a few of the Z550M/ZM1050 are broken internally, I have >>>>>>>>>>>>> a box of them, and that seems to be due to the welding of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> internal >>>>>>>>>>>>> parts coming loose when shaken or hit hard (the same problem >>>>>>>>>>>>> exists with >>>>>>>>>>>>> the B9012/NL9012 tubes - I have a few broken ones of those too >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> internal pieces that have come loose) - sometimes you can hear >>>>>>>>>>>>> these loose >>>>>>>>>>>>> pieces if you shake the tube very carefully close to your ear. >>>>>>>>>>>>> What usually >>>>>>>>>>>>> happens is that a rather large round center piece comes loose and >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> worst case shortens some of the electrodes but usually only makes >>>>>>>>>>>>> it hard >>>>>>>>>>>>> or impossible to get all digits to light up poperly and some of >>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>> trigger easier than others due to the distances between >>>>>>>>>>>>> electrodes are >>>>>>>>>>>>> differing, shaking the tube a little moves that effect around so >>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>> digits will start to work and vice versa. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: JBDance-Z550M.JPG] >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 06:02:24 UTC+1 gregebert >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have an isolation transformer, can you put a scope on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the cathode line to verify the ripple is not excessive ? Rk and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ck create >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an RC filter around 77Hz, and the line is 50-60Hz, so there >>>>>>>>>>>>>> could be some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ripple. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 8:26:51 PM UTC-8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bung...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tried varying it with absolutely no effect. It runs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perfectly at 5v with the capacitor moved to the other side of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the resistor. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However I was clocking slowly. It may not run at spec speed. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember reading of using 5 to 8 volts for the logic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data sheet shows the following which I'm inclined to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. I will try Ck directly on the pins tomorrow. Someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have tried this circuit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Cct.JPG] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 11:12 PM gregebert < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greg...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect the differential voltage between lit vs non-lit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numerals is too low. The CMOS device is basically driving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grids to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine which cathode will be illuminated. I've seen similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with an A-101 dekatron. What voltage are you using for VDD ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it 8V as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicated on the schematic, or a more-conventional 5V ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 7:22:25 PM UTC-8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bung...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you are wrong. The literature explains this tube >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is designed to be driven by 5v logic and it does work. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrodes are close to the Anode voltage which is grounded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and only 5v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pulses (square waves) are needed. Note all the cathodes are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connected >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together internally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking about the C1 position. The data sheet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows it per my schematic and I can't believe they made that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mistake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several times including the hand drawn notes of the designer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I needed to have C1 directly on the socket pins and will try >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that tomorrow. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your interest though but you are thinking Nixie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tubes, this is a special tube with steering electrodes.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 9:42 PM chuckrr < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chu...@all2easy.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That schematic is so wrong in so many ways. You need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high voltage transistors operating the tube cathodes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need high resistance drving the transistor bases. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need a buffer such as 4049 or 4050 driving the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resistor, which in turn drives the transistor base. Only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then would I dare to use the 4028....to operate the buffer, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which in turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operates the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transistor base via appropriate high resistance. That is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only sure fire way I know of to attain noise-free >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance from CMOS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driving cold cathode tubes. That schematic there is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noisy deal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---- Original Message ---- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "peter bunge" <bung...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/10/2021 8:15:21 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "neonixie-l" <neoni...@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [neonixie-l] 8453/Z550M erratic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Using the schematic from the data sheet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This works with the count moving around but other numbers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flash erratically, especially close to the number that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *When I moved the bottom of C1 to the other side of R1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it works perfectly. It is rock steady and does not care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about line voltage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the 5v supply (shown above as 8v but used at 5v)* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this is an error it is continued through all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documentation and is consistent. Changing the value of C1 up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and down by 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had little effect but a smaller C1 helps a bit. My Rst are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all directly on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the socket pins and the wires are all about 5 inches long. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have varied the line voltage with little effect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any suggestions??? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/b996ef0b-edbb-4c77-8ec1-57255dd58a82n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/b996ef0b-edbb-4c77-8ec1-57255dd58a82n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/202102101842701.SM05295%40ADT-IM1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/202102101842701.SM05295%40ADT-IM1?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/9543e23e-ebb0-46e7-8624-ddcf4a843667n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/9543e23e-ebb0-46e7-8624-ddcf4a843667n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/7085da7d-27dd-46f3-9bba-9e2d369dcc4fn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 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