>Can a Dekatron be driven like a Nixie from a 74141 instead of using the steering electrodes?
I've not actually done the experiment in the way that you say, but the answer should be 'yes'. You'll need a selector dekatron though where all the main cathodes are brought out to their own individual pins. So GS10C / 6476 / A101 for example rather than GC10B / 6802 / OG4. There is actually a dekatron-lookalike, the GR10A, which is designed to be used like this - it's essentially a GS10C without the guide electrodes (different base, but that's a detail). Jon. On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 2:38:21 PM UTC [email protected] wrote: > Alex; you are missing the point. Neither of the circuits shown in various > data sheets work properly! > The circuit that does work and the one I'm using has the capacitor > connected to the other side of the resistor. > A quick question so it does not get lost below: Can a Dekatron be driven > like a Nixie from a 74141 instead of using the steering electrodes? > > [image: 8453_LR.jpg] > [image: 8453 Board_LR.jpg] > Each tube has its own small circuit board that connects to a PIC on my > power supply by a 6 wire (+5v, Gnd, 4 BCD) harness. and by a separate two > wire harness if High Voltage is needed (the 2 pin 0.2" spacing header on > the perfboard above). My wires are fed through a hole and loop down to be > soldered to provide strain relief. All boards mount on two spacers. Some > mount directly on the back of the tube if space allows. Any board can be > removed in less than a minute, usually 2 screws but 4 screws where the > board is not attached to the tube, then pull one or two connectors. > [image: Wiring_LR.jpg] > The E1T tube does not count in sync with the others because it is clocked, > not fed by the common BCD bus. It takes time for the filaments to warm up > so it needs a reset every decade to get it in sync. However it cannot count > backwards without a lot of effort I'm not about to expend so it stays like > this. The hole below is for LED displays. > [image: Display Demo_LR.jpg] > > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 3:38 AM Alex <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Just a thought, maybe the diodes originally used had a much different >> reverse leakage which, in half wave rectified setup, caused the polarity in >> the tube to flip slightly - at low leakage current levels - and thus >> extinguish it more cleanly between ripples. Modern(!) silicon (verses >> germanium) may be too sharp for it? I think your full wave design is >> probably best anyhow, the half wave was likely a cost compremise! >> - Alex >> >> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 20:08:35 UTC [email protected] wrote: >> >>> I tried Rk at 12k and 22k and it is still erratic. >>> Next I went back to full wave and connected it to my display chassis >>> that runs from a PIC that counts at various speeds. I see the circuit only >>> counts slowly but at 10/sec it fails. No flickering, it just does not count. >>> I changed the capacitor to the other side of Rk and it works perfectly. >>> I can't believe it is a typo carried through three documents but >>> companies have been known to intentionally place errors to cause grief to >>> anyone trying to steal their designs. >>> This circuit works. >>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>> >>> On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 12:47:29 PM UTC-5 Dekatron42 wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, I've never looked at that particular datasheet previously, only >>>> the Philips ones even though I have a few Amperex stamped Z550M's. >>>> >>>> In this document: https://www.dos4ever.com/Z550M/Z550M2.pdf (a >>>> somewhat clearer PDF can be downloaded here: >>>> http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/Z550M_2.pdf) there is >>>> a paragraph on "Supply voltage" on page 120 where they mention a minimum >>>> repetition frequency of 80 pulses per second as a minmum for proper >>>> operation - perhaps that is the reason why it doesn't work as well on just >>>> half wave rectification. Maybe Amperex had some specially made to be able >>>> to drive them at 117 VAC @ 60Hz? >>>> >>>> /Martin >>>> >>>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 17:56:07 UTC+1 [email protected] wrote: >>>> >>>>> Martin; See attached for data sheet. I have tried different >>>>> capacitors. They make no difference for either full wave or half wave - >>>>> full wave always works with no indication of problems and half wave >>>>> flickers all over the place and never works (unless I move the capacitor >>>>> connection). >>>>> >>>>> Bill van Dijk: I am in Canada, 60 Hz. Control grid?? See data sheet >>>>> attached. >>>>> >>>>> I was hoping someone else would have tried these circuits. I have used >>>>> a 'scope to check the various signals and they look fine. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 9:06 AM Dekatron42 <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Which datasheet do you use? I only have information with the full >>>>>> wave rectifier. >>>>>> >>>>>> What happens if you use a 470nF or 1uF capacitor with the half wave >>>>>> rectifier? I made some quick LTSpice simulations which shows that a >>>>>> higher >>>>>> capacitor might work as the voltage seems to fall low enough between >>>>>> each >>>>>> period, but only real tests can show if that works properly. >>>>>> >>>>>> /Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 14:13:47 UTC+1 [email protected] >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Martin, I changed the circuit back to halfwave using a single >>>>>>> diode from the bridge rectifier and changing the capacitor. This was >>>>>>> absolute minimum change without moving anything else. Back came the >>>>>>> erratic flashing. So it's not the diode. It just does not like half >>>>>>> wave. >>>>>>> My circuits are direct copies from the data sheet. >>>>>>> Peter >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 5:21 PM Dekatron42 <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nice that it works! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My understanding is that they need rectified AC, with just a little >>>>>>>> smoothing so as not to make it a pure DC voltage, as they extinguish >>>>>>>> during >>>>>>>> the portion of the voltage when it is to low to maintain the glow, and >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> are re-ignited when the voltage rise again as long as a trigger >>>>>>>> electrode >>>>>>>> has the correct voltage to initiate a glow, much like a thyratron. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe you can find the reason for it working now compared to >>>>>>>> earlier failures if you check the voltage across the >>>>>>>> Anode-Cathode-Ignition >>>>>>>> electrode with an oscilloscope? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've also had some problems with CMOS ic's when I have had poor, or >>>>>>>> no, connection to VCC/GND on the power pins - the circuit worked quite >>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>> until I touched some pins. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 21:50:49 UTC+1 [email protected] >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have solved the problem but I don't understand why. >>>>>>>>> Having tried all the suggestions except this, I went to a full >>>>>>>>> wave rectifier. It is not quite the same as the data sheet but does >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> same thing. >>>>>>>>> It also has the capacitor connected per the data sheet, the same >>>>>>>>> as my half wave circuit that did not work. >>>>>>>>> This is rock solid with no indication of any other flickering. I >>>>>>>>> am using the first (worst) tube. Touching the glass has no effect. >>>>>>>>> Apparently the tube does not like half wave. Perhaps it was my >>>>>>>>> 1N4007 diode? They can switch too fast and maybe it needed a snubber. >>>>>>>>> I also tried DC from a variable regulated power supply (HP 6448B up >>>>>>>>> to 600 [email protected] amp, and no, I did not go that far). That locked >>>>>>>>> the display on one digit. The data sheet says it needs rectified >>>>>>>>> line, not >>>>>>>>> DC. >>>>>>>>> I am running my tests from an HP supply for the 5v and an >>>>>>>>> isolation transformer driven by a Variac for the AC so I have full >>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>> of all voltages. >>>>>>>>> This is my final schematic. It is driven by a PIC with parallel >>>>>>>>> connectors for each display. I used a PIC to generate the BCD because >>>>>>>>> CMOS >>>>>>>>> would not drive the three 74141 for the Nixies. The PIC counts up and >>>>>>>>> down >>>>>>>>> at varying speeds which would have been more difficult with CMOS. >>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:33 AM Dekatron42 <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Touching the glass means that you get a capacitive coupling which >>>>>>>>>> will upset them somewhat, there was a special socket made for this >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> Philips which has a partial metal screen surrounding the tube. The >>>>>>>>>> socket >>>>>>>>>> is nicknamed "der Kuss" , "The kiss", due to its form. I couldn't >>>>>>>>>> find a >>>>>>>>>> photo on the Internet now but I know it exists as I have some in my >>>>>>>>>> storage >>>>>>>>>> and in an instrument that uses them. That instrument is called >>>>>>>>>> PW4261 >>>>>>>>>> Timer, some photos of the externals can be found on the Internet. On >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> socket all of the resistors are mounted flush to the pins to >>>>>>>>>> minimize the >>>>>>>>>> distance, but the capacitors and power supply is mounted some 40cm >>>>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>>>> tubes themselves, likewise there are long wires to the drivers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You can also have a look at the manual for the PW4231 which I >>>>>>>>>> scanned that can be downloaded from here: >>>>>>>>>> https://frank.pocnet.net/other/sos/Philips_PW4232.pdf if that >>>>>>>>>> can help you with the voltages for the drivers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 15:50:55 UTC+1 [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I meant dekatron in my last reply to gregebert. >>>>>>>>>>> I have 3 of these tubes, all apparently new (NOS). >>>>>>>>>>> Per your suggestion I tried the other two. One is almost perfect >>>>>>>>>>> but flashes the 2 a bit when 8 is selected. The third is perfect >>>>>>>>>>> unless I >>>>>>>>>>> hold the tube in my fingers by the glass where I get lots of random >>>>>>>>>>> flashing. >>>>>>>>>>> Remember that the really bad one works perfectly with >>>>>>>>>>> the capacitor moved as I mentioned. I don't know if touching the >>>>>>>>>>> glass >>>>>>>>>>> affects it. >>>>>>>>>>> More later, I will be away this morning. >>>>>>>>>>> Peter. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 2:10 AM Dekatron42 <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Have you tried the circuit in the J.B Dance book below? Here >>>>>>>>>>>> they use a center tapped transformer and also a much lower value >>>>>>>>>>>> capacitor, >>>>>>>>>>>> only 33nF versus 250nF in your circuit - I've only evere seen 33nF >>>>>>>>>>>> used in >>>>>>>>>>>> real instruments using these indicators. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Quite a few of the Z550M/ZM1050 are broken internally, I have a >>>>>>>>>>>> box of them, and that seems to be due to the welding of the >>>>>>>>>>>> internal parts >>>>>>>>>>>> coming loose when shaken or hit hard (the same problem exists with >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> B9012/NL9012 tubes - I have a few broken ones of those too with >>>>>>>>>>>> internal >>>>>>>>>>>> pieces that have come loose) - sometimes you can hear these loose >>>>>>>>>>>> pieces if >>>>>>>>>>>> you shake the tube very carefully close to your ear. What usually >>>>>>>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>>>>>> is that a rather large round center piece comes loose and in the >>>>>>>>>>>> worst case >>>>>>>>>>>> shortens some of the electrodes but usually only makes it hard or >>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to get all digits to light up poperly and some of them >>>>>>>>>>>> trigger >>>>>>>>>>>> easier than others due to the distances between electrodes are >>>>>>>>>>>> differing, >>>>>>>>>>>> shaking the tube a little moves that effect around so other digits >>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>> start to work and vice versa. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [image: JBDance-Z550M.JPG] >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 06:02:24 UTC+1 gregebert wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have an isolation transformer, can you put a scope on >>>>>>>>>>>>> the cathode line to verify the ripple is not excessive ? Rk and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ck create >>>>>>>>>>>>> an RC filter around 77Hz, and the line is 50-60Hz, so there could >>>>>>>>>>>>> be some >>>>>>>>>>>>> ripple. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 8:26:51 PM UTC-8 >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tried varying it with absolutely no effect. It runs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perfectly at 5v with the capacitor moved to the other side of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the resistor. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> However I was clocking slowly. It may not run at spec speed. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember reading of using 5 to 8 volts for the logic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data sheet shows the following which I'm inclined to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. I will try Ck directly on the pins tomorrow. Someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have tried this circuit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Cct.JPG] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 11:12 PM gregebert < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect the differential voltage between lit vs non-lit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numerals is too low. The CMOS device is basically driving grids >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine which cathode will be illuminated. I've seen similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with an A-101 dekatron. What voltage are you using for VDD ? Is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it 8V as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicated on the schematic, or a more-conventional 5V ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 7:22:25 PM UTC-8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you are wrong. The literature explains this tube is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designed to be driven by 5v logic and it does work. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering electrodes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are close to the Anode voltage which is grounded and only 5v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pulses (square >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waves) are needed. Note all the cathodes are connected >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together internally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking about the C1 position. The data sheet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows it per my schematic and I can't believe they made that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mistake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several times including the hand drawn notes of the designer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I needed to have C1 directly on the socket pins and will try >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that tomorrow. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your interest though but you are thinking Nixie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tubes, this is a special tube with steering electrodes.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 9:42 PM chuckrr < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That schematic is so wrong in so many ways. You need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high voltage transistors operating the tube cathodes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need high resistance drving the transistor bases. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need a buffer such as 4049 or 4050 driving the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resistor, which in turn drives the transistor base. Only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then would I dare to use the 4028....to operate the buffer, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which in turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operates the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transistor base via appropriate high resistance. That is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only sure fire way I know of to attain noise-free >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance from CMOS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driving cold cathode tubes. That schematic there is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noisy deal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---- Original Message ---- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "peter bunge" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/10/2021 8:15:21 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "neonixie-l" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [neonixie-l] 8453/Z550M erratic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Using the schematic from the data sheet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This works with the count moving around but other numbers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flash erratically, especially close to the number that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *When I moved the bottom of C1 to the other side of R1 it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works perfectly. It is rock steady and does not care about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line voltage or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5v supply (shown above as 8v but used at 5v)* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this is an error it is continued through all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documentation and is consistent. Changing the value of C1 up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and down by 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had little effect but a smaller C1 helps a bit. My Rst are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all directly on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the socket pins and the wires are all about 5 inches long. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have varied the line voltage with little effect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any suggestions??? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/b996ef0b-edbb-4c77-8ec1-57255dd58a82n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/b996ef0b-edbb-4c77-8ec1-57255dd58a82n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because 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