A 74141 might work properly, because it's a decoder that only allows 1 output to be driven low at any given time. To properly drive a dekatron, such as an A-101, you should drive it with an 'overlapping' drive pattern, which has 6 phases: 1- Drive cathode 'N' 2-Drive cathode 'N' and the first steering cathode ring 3-Drive first steering ring 4-Drive both steering rings 5-Drive second steering ring 6-Drive second steering ring and cathode 'N+1' (Repeat)
I did experiment with a non-overlapping pattern several years ago, and it was flaky. The 6-phase pattern is rock solid. On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 7:16:35 AM UTC-8 Jon wrote: > >Can a Dekatron be driven like a Nixie from a 74141 instead of using the > steering electrodes? > > I've not actually done the experiment in the way that you say, but the > answer should be 'yes'. You'll need a selector dekatron though where all > the main cathodes are brought out to their own individual pins. So GS10C / > 6476 / A101 for example rather than GC10B / 6802 / OG4. > > There is actually a dekatron-lookalike, the GR10A, which is designed to be > used like this - it's essentially a GS10C without the guide electrodes > (different base, but that's a detail). > > Jon. > > On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 2:38:21 PM UTC [email protected] wrote: > >> Alex; you are missing the point. Neither of the circuits shown in various >> data sheets work properly! >> The circuit that does work and the one I'm using has the capacitor >> connected to the other side of the resistor. >> A quick question so it does not get lost below: Can a Dekatron be driven >> like a Nixie from a 74141 instead of using the steering electrodes? >> >> [image: 8453_LR.jpg] >> [image: 8453 Board_LR.jpg] >> Each tube has its own small circuit board that connects to a PIC on my >> power supply by a 6 wire (+5v, Gnd, 4 BCD) harness. and by a separate two >> wire harness if High Voltage is needed (the 2 pin 0.2" spacing header on >> the perfboard above). My wires are fed through a hole and loop down to be >> soldered to provide strain relief. All boards mount on two spacers. Some >> mount directly on the back of the tube if space allows. Any board can be >> removed in less than a minute, usually 2 screws but 4 screws where the >> board is not attached to the tube, then pull one or two connectors. >> [image: Wiring_LR.jpg] >> The E1T tube does not count in sync with the others because it is >> clocked, not fed by the common BCD bus. It takes time for the filaments to >> warm up so it needs a reset every decade to get it in sync. However it >> cannot count backwards without a lot of effort I'm not about to expend so >> it stays like this. The hole below is for LED displays. >> [image: Display Demo_LR.jpg] >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 3:38 AM Alex <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Just a thought, maybe the diodes originally used had a much different >>> reverse leakage which, in half wave rectified setup, caused the polarity in >>> the tube to flip slightly - at low leakage current levels - and thus >>> extinguish it more cleanly between ripples. Modern(!) silicon (verses >>> germanium) may be too sharp for it? I think your full wave design is >>> probably best anyhow, the half wave was likely a cost compremise! >>> - Alex >>> >>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 20:08:35 UTC [email protected] wrote: >>> >>>> I tried Rk at 12k and 22k and it is still erratic. >>>> Next I went back to full wave and connected it to my display chassis >>>> that runs from a PIC that counts at various speeds. I see the circuit only >>>> counts slowly but at 10/sec it fails. No flickering, it just does not >>>> count. >>>> I changed the capacitor to the other side of Rk and it works perfectly. >>>> I can't believe it is a typo carried through three documents but >>>> companies have been known to intentionally place errors to cause grief to >>>> anyone trying to steal their designs. >>>> This circuit works. >>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>> >>>> On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 12:47:29 PM UTC-5 Dekatron42 wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks, I've never looked at that particular datasheet previously, >>>>> only the Philips ones even though I have a few Amperex stamped Z550M's. >>>>> >>>>> In this document: https://www.dos4ever.com/Z550M/Z550M2.pdf (a >>>>> somewhat clearer PDF can be downloaded here: >>>>> http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/Z550M_2.pdf) there is >>>>> a paragraph on "Supply voltage" on page 120 where they mention a minimum >>>>> repetition frequency of 80 pulses per second as a minmum for proper >>>>> operation - perhaps that is the reason why it doesn't work as well on >>>>> just >>>>> half wave rectification. Maybe Amperex had some specially made to be able >>>>> to drive them at 117 VAC @ 60Hz? >>>>> >>>>> /Martin >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 17:56:07 UTC+1 [email protected] wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Martin; See attached for data sheet. I have tried different >>>>>> capacitors. They make no difference for either full wave or half wave - >>>>>> full wave always works with no indication of problems and half wave >>>>>> flickers all over the place and never works (unless I move the capacitor >>>>>> connection). >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill van Dijk: I am in Canada, 60 Hz. Control grid?? See data sheet >>>>>> attached. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was hoping someone else would have tried these circuits. I have >>>>>> used a 'scope to check the various signals and they look fine. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 9:06 AM Dekatron42 <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Which datasheet do you use? I only have information with the full >>>>>>> wave rectifier. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What happens if you use a 470nF or 1uF capacitor with the half wave >>>>>>> rectifier? I made some quick LTSpice simulations which shows that a >>>>>>> higher >>>>>>> capacitor might work as the voltage seems to fall low enough between >>>>>>> each >>>>>>> period, but only real tests can show if that works properly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 14:13:47 UTC+1 [email protected] >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Martin, I changed the circuit back to halfwave using a single >>>>>>>> diode from the bridge rectifier and changing the capacitor. This was >>>>>>>> absolute minimum change without moving anything else. Back came the >>>>>>>> erratic flashing. So it's not the diode. It just does not like half >>>>>>>> wave. >>>>>>>> My circuits are direct copies from the data sheet. >>>>>>>> Peter >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 5:21 PM Dekatron42 <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nice that it works! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My understanding is that they need rectified AC, with just a >>>>>>>>> little smoothing so as not to make it a pure DC voltage, as they >>>>>>>>> extinguish >>>>>>>>> during the portion of the voltage when it is to low to maintain the >>>>>>>>> glow, >>>>>>>>> and they are re-ignited when the voltage rise again as long as a >>>>>>>>> trigger >>>>>>>>> electrode has the correct voltage to initiate a glow, much like a >>>>>>>>> thyratron. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe you can find the reason for it working now compared to >>>>>>>>> earlier failures if you check the voltage across the >>>>>>>>> Anode-Cathode-Ignition >>>>>>>>> electrode with an oscilloscope? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've also had some problems with CMOS ic's when I have had poor, >>>>>>>>> or no, connection to VCC/GND on the power pins - the circuit worked >>>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>>> well until I touched some pins. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 21:50:49 UTC+1 [email protected] >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have solved the problem but I don't understand why. >>>>>>>>>> Having tried all the suggestions except this, I went to a full >>>>>>>>>> wave rectifier. It is not quite the same as the data sheet but does >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same thing. >>>>>>>>>> It also has the capacitor connected per the data sheet, the same >>>>>>>>>> as my half wave circuit that did not work. >>>>>>>>>> This is rock solid with no indication of any other flickering. I >>>>>>>>>> am using the first (worst) tube. Touching the glass has no effect. >>>>>>>>>> Apparently the tube does not like half wave. Perhaps it was my >>>>>>>>>> 1N4007 diode? They can switch too fast and maybe it needed a snubber. >>>>>>>>>> I also tried DC from a variable regulated power supply (HP 6448B up >>>>>>>>>> to 600 [email protected] amp, and no, I did not go that far). That locked >>>>>>>>>> the display on one digit. The data sheet says it needs rectified >>>>>>>>>> line, not >>>>>>>>>> DC. >>>>>>>>>> I am running my tests from an HP supply for the 5v and an >>>>>>>>>> isolation transformer driven by a Variac for the AC so I have full >>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>> of all voltages. >>>>>>>>>> This is my final schematic. It is driven by a PIC with parallel >>>>>>>>>> connectors for each display. I used a PIC to generate the BCD >>>>>>>>>> because CMOS >>>>>>>>>> would not drive the three 74141 for the Nixies. The PIC counts up >>>>>>>>>> and down >>>>>>>>>> at varying speeds which would have been more difficult with CMOS. >>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:33 AM Dekatron42 <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Touching the glass means that you get a capacitive coupling >>>>>>>>>>> which will upset them somewhat, there was a special socket made for >>>>>>>>>>> this by >>>>>>>>>>> Philips which has a partial metal screen surrounding the tube. The >>>>>>>>>>> socket >>>>>>>>>>> is nicknamed "der Kuss" , "The kiss", due to its form. I couldn't >>>>>>>>>>> find a >>>>>>>>>>> photo on the Internet now but I know it exists as I have some in my >>>>>>>>>>> storage >>>>>>>>>>> and in an instrument that uses them. That instrument is called >>>>>>>>>>> PW4261 >>>>>>>>>>> Timer, some photos of the externals can be found on the Internet. >>>>>>>>>>> On this >>>>>>>>>>> socket all of the resistors are mounted flush to the pins to >>>>>>>>>>> minimize the >>>>>>>>>>> distance, but the capacitors and power supply is mounted some 40cm >>>>>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>>>>> tubes themselves, likewise there are long wires to the drivers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You can also have a look at the manual for the PW4231 which I >>>>>>>>>>> scanned that can be downloaded from here: >>>>>>>>>>> https://frank.pocnet.net/other/sos/Philips_PW4232.pdf if that >>>>>>>>>>> can help you with the voltages for the drivers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 15:50:55 UTC+1 >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I meant dekatron in my last reply to gregebert. >>>>>>>>>>>> I have 3 of these tubes, all apparently new (NOS). >>>>>>>>>>>> Per your suggestion I tried the other two. One is almost >>>>>>>>>>>> perfect but flashes the 2 a bit when 8 is selected. The third is >>>>>>>>>>>> perfect >>>>>>>>>>>> unless I hold the tube in my fingers by the glass where I get lots >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> random flashing. >>>>>>>>>>>> Remember that the really bad one works perfectly with >>>>>>>>>>>> the capacitor moved as I mentioned. I don't know if touching the >>>>>>>>>>>> glass >>>>>>>>>>>> affects it. >>>>>>>>>>>> More later, I will be away this morning. >>>>>>>>>>>> Peter. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 2:10 AM Dekatron42 < >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you tried the circuit in the J.B Dance book below? Here >>>>>>>>>>>>> they use a center tapped transformer and also a much lower value >>>>>>>>>>>>> capacitor, >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 33nF versus 250nF in your circuit - I've only evere seen >>>>>>>>>>>>> 33nF used in >>>>>>>>>>>>> real instruments using these indicators. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Quite a few of the Z550M/ZM1050 are broken internally, I have >>>>>>>>>>>>> a box of them, and that seems to be due to the welding of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> internal >>>>>>>>>>>>> parts coming loose when shaken or hit hard (the same problem >>>>>>>>>>>>> exists with >>>>>>>>>>>>> the B9012/NL9012 tubes - I have a few broken ones of those too >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> internal pieces that have come loose) - sometimes you can hear >>>>>>>>>>>>> these loose >>>>>>>>>>>>> pieces if you shake the tube very carefully close to your ear. >>>>>>>>>>>>> What usually >>>>>>>>>>>>> happens is that a rather large round center piece comes loose and >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> worst case shortens some of the electrodes but usually only makes >>>>>>>>>>>>> it hard >>>>>>>>>>>>> or impossible to get all digits to light up poperly and some of >>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>> trigger easier than others due to the distances between >>>>>>>>>>>>> electrodes are >>>>>>>>>>>>> differing, shaking the tube a little moves that effect around so >>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>> digits will start to work and vice versa. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: JBDance-Z550M.JPG] >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 06:02:24 UTC+1 gregebert >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have an isolation transformer, can you put a scope on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the cathode line to verify the ripple is not excessive ? Rk and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ck create >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an RC filter around 77Hz, and the line is 50-60Hz, so there >>>>>>>>>>>>>> could be some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ripple. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 8:26:51 PM UTC-8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tried varying it with absolutely no effect. It runs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perfectly at 5v with the capacitor moved to the other side of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the resistor. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However I was clocking slowly. It may not run at spec speed. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember reading of using 5 to 8 volts for the logic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data sheet shows the following which I'm inclined to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. I will try Ck directly on the pins tomorrow. Someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have tried this circuit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Cct.JPG] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 11:12 PM gregebert < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect the differential voltage between lit vs non-lit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numerals is too low. The CMOS device is basically driving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grids to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine which cathode will be illuminated. I've seen similar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with an A-101 dekatron. What voltage are you using for VDD ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it 8V as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicated on the schematic, or a more-conventional 5V ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 7:22:25 PM UTC-8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you are wrong. The literature explains this tube >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is designed to be driven by 5v logic and it does work. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrodes are close to the Anode voltage which is grounded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and only 5v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pulses (square waves) are needed. Note all the cathodes are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connected >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together internally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking about the C1 position. The data sheet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows it per my schematic and I can't believe they made that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mistake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several times including the hand drawn notes of the designer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I needed to have C1 directly on the socket pins and will try >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that tomorrow. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your interest though but you are thinking Nixie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tubes, this is a special tube with steering electrodes.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 9:42 PM chuckrr < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That schematic is so wrong in so many ways. You need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high voltage transistors operating the tube cathodes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need high resistance drving the transistor bases. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need a buffer such as 4049 or 4050 driving the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resistor, which in turn drives the transistor base. Only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then would I dare to use the 4028....to operate the buffer, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which in turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operates the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transistor base via appropriate high resistance. That is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only sure fire way I know of to attain noise-free >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance from CMOS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driving cold cathode tubes. That schematic there is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noisy deal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---- Original Message ---- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "peter bunge" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/10/2021 8:15:21 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "neonixie-l" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [neonixie-l] 8453/Z550M erratic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Using the schematic from the data sheet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This works with the count moving around but other numbers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flash erratically, especially close to the number that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *When I moved the bottom of C1 to the other side of R1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it works perfectly. It is rock steady and does not care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about line voltage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the 5v supply (shown above as 8v but used at 5v)* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this is an error it is continued through all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documentation and is consistent. Changing the value of C1 up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and down by 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had little effect but a smaller C1 helps a bit. My Rst are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all directly on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the socket pins and the wires are all about 5 inches long. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have varied the line voltage with little effect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any suggestions??? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/b996ef0b-edbb-4c77-8ec1-57255dd58a82n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/b996ef0b-edbb-4c77-8ec1-57255dd58a82n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/202102101842701.SM05295%40ADT-IM1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/202102101842701.SM05295%40ADT-IM1?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/9543e23e-ebb0-46e7-8624-ddcf4a843667n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/9543e23e-ebb0-46e7-8624-ddcf4a843667n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/7085da7d-27dd-46f3-9bba-9e2d369dcc4fn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/7085da7d-27dd-46f3-9bba-9e2d369dcc4fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>> . 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