Of course. On 10 Sep 2011, at 01:52, Alan Sondheim wrote:
> > Hi Simon, I can write you back channel about this if you want. Your > description below was followed. What happened was ugly. > > - Alan > > > On Fri, 9 Sep 2011, Simon Biggs wrote: > >> I'm surprised empyre was grief. So long as you stick to the monthly theme >> (it is a strictly thematic discussion list, not a general discussion list, >> and is moderated to ensure there are no announcements or off topic posts) it >> is a very generous community, in my experience. Melissa started it with >> excellent intentions and they have remained at its core. >> >> best >> >> Simon >> >> >> On 9 Sep 2011, at 17:50, Alan Sondheim wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I had real trouble on empyre and went quiet; I was one of the guests at one >>> point and was attacked by one of the moderators during the period. So I'm >>> not very partial to it. Syndicate was only announcement at the end, far >>> more interesting earlier as was 7-11 etc. The Cybermind list I run has been >>> going for 18 years strong, as has been wryting-l which was originally >>> fiction-of-philosophy. Depends on the list. - Alan >>> >>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2011, Ana Vald?s wrote: >>> >>>> I remember I was subscribed to Syndicate as well but I never heard about NN >>>> and never participated, I felt Syndicate was more a list for announcements >>>> of events, maybe I only subscribed to the events list. >>>> But it's interesting to discuss the validity of the mailinglists today, as >>>> forums for discussion or for sharing information. >>>> I have been participating in the Australian list -empyre for many years and >>>> now I feel the list is slowly dissapearing. Some of you (Patrick Lichty was >>>> a briljant moderator for some month's ago) are members of -empyre too. Do >>>> you feel the same as me? It's not strange, the list has been on the net for >>>> ages and the moderators do a terrific job but the most of people are >>>> freelancing artists or teachers with very little time to spare... >>>> I tried today to reach their arrchives and the links were broken. >>>> It would be a real loss if -empyre is gone. >>>> Ana >>>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:54 PM, marc garrett >>>> <marc.garr...@furtherfield.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> Hi Ana, >>>> >>>> Thanks for the link to 'Doctress Neutopia', very interesting... >>>> >>>> Yes - I remember on the (once brilliant) Syndicate list years >>>> ago, where >>>> Netochka Nezvanova, N.N., antiorp, integer dominated, causing >>>> all kinds >>>> of upset... >>>> >>>> "The net entity nn (Netochka Nezvanova, integer, antiorp, etc.), >>>> a >>>> pseudonym used by an international group of artists and >>>> programmers in >>>> their extensive and aggressive mailing list-based >>>> online-performances and >>>> for other art projects, had been subscribed to the Syndicate >>>> list in 1997. >>>> It was, as the first of less than a handful of people ever, >>>> unsubscribed >>>> against its will because it was spamming the list so heavily >>>> that all >>>> meaningful communication was blocked. In January 2001, nn sent >>>> an e-mail >>>> asking to again be subscribed to the Syndicate mailing list. >>>> (What nn >>>> never bothered to realise was that subscription to the list had >>>> always >>>> been open so that, at any point, it could have subscribed itself >>>> - we have >>>> always wondered why Majordomo is such a blind spot in this >>>> technophile >>>> entity's arsenal.) After getting assurances from nn that she was >>>> not out >>>> to misuse the list, we subscribed it to the Syndicate list. >>>> >>>> Naively, as we had to realise. nn went from one or two messages >>>> every day >>>> in February to an average of three to five message in April and >>>> up to >>>> eight and ten messages per day in May and June - and that on a >>>> list which >>>> had a regular daily traffic of three to five messages a day. The >>>> distributed nature of the nn collective makes it possible for >>>> them to keep >>>> posting 24 hours a day - great for promoting your online >>>> presence, >>>> irritating for people who have a less frantic life rhythm. nn's >>>> messages >>>> are always cryptic, sometimes amusing, often tediously >>>> repetitive in their >>>> quirky rhetorics and style, and generally irritating for the >>>> majority of >>>> people. Its activity on the Syndicate - like on many other lists >>>> it has >>>> used and terrorised - soon came to look like a hijack. But the >>>> sheer mass >>>> of traffic nn was generating, the sheer amount of nn's presence, >>>> was >>>> overwhelming. Perhaps this phenomenon could be compared to >>>> SMEGL, short >>>> for super mental grid lock, a term that was developed to >>>> describe traffic >>>> jam situations in NYC back in the eighties (or was this term >>>> coined in >>>> Berlin-Kreuzberg's famous Fischbuero? Who knows, the boundaries >>>> get >>>> blurred...). >>>> >>>> In the spring of 2001, nn's and other people's activities who >>>> use open, >>>> unmoderated mailing lists for promulgating their >>>> self-promotional e-mails, >>>> triggered discussions about 'spam art', on Syndicate as well as >>>> on other >>>> lists. Actually, given the extreme openness and vulnerability of >>>> a >>>> structure like the Syndicate it remains quite astonishing that >>>> this >>>> structure survived for such a long time. What happened in the >>>> course of >>>> 2000/2001 (not only to Syndicate, but also to several other >>>> mailing lists) >>>> was that the openness of these lists, i.e. the fact that they >>>> were >>>> unmoderated, was massively abused, and, finally, destroyed, by >>>> relentless >>>> 'creative' spamming. One of the basic principles of the Internet >>>> - its >>>> openness - suddenly seemed to become a mere tool for attacking >>>> this very >>>> principle. 'Netiquette' did not seem to be of much value anymore >>>> and was >>>> sacrificed for the egotistical self-expression of (distributed) >>>> artist >>>> egos. The irony of this process is that, like any good parasite, >>>> this >>>> artistic practice depends on the existence of lively online >>>> communities: >>>> it not only bites, but kills the hand that feeds it. - These >>>> parasite >>>> nomads will find new hosts, no doubt, but they have over the >>>> past year >>>> helped to erode the social fabric of the wider net cultural >>>> population so >>>> much that communities have to protect themselves from attacks >>>> and hijacks >>>> more aggressively than before. Their adolescent carelessness is >>>> partly >>>> responsible for the withering of the romantic utopia of a >>>> completely open, >>>> sociable online environment. However educational that may be, we >>>> despise >>>> the deliberation with which these people act. >>>> >>>> nn got unsubscribed from the Syndicate without warning on a day >>>> when there >>>> had been nothing but ten messages from her. After some days of >>>> silence and >>>> sighs of relief, angry protests by nn came through. On the list, >>>> accusations of censorship and/or dictatorship were made. A small >>>> but noisy >>>> faction denounced unsubscribing nn as an act against the freedom >>>> of >>>> speech. They called the administrators fascists, murderers, and >>>> 'threatened' to report the case to 'Index on Censorship'. While >>>> some other >>>> list members welcomed the departure of nn on and off the list >>>> and the >>>> admin team again and again explained their move, the ludicrous >>>> allegations >>>> and vociferous insults continued. >>>> >>>> The real shock for us was that the majority of list subscribers >>>> did not >>>> participate in the discussion and thus silently seemed to accept >>>> what was >>>> going on. It was personally hurtful not to receive more support >>>> against >>>> the insults raised against us, but more frustrating was the >>>> indifference >>>> that made the whole process possible. Within few days, the >>>> alienation from >>>> the atmosphere on the list was so great that we admitted defeat, >>>> re-subscribed nn and began to withdraw from the Syndicate. The >>>> list was >>>> moved to a different server and is now administered by other >>>> people at >>>> anart.no/~syndicate. We wanted to avoid further verbiage and >>>> conflict and >>>> therefore gave up the name, but we insist that from our >>>> perspective the >>>> Syndicate project that was founded in 1996 ended in August 2001. >>>> What >>>> remains under its name is a zombie kept alive by misconceptions >>>> about what >>>> the Syndicate really was. Maybe we should have stopped the >>>> project >>>> altogether in the summer? >>>> >>>> Filtering has, in a way, done us in. Before there were effective >>>> e-mail >>>> clients that could filter out lists and other mail >>>> communication, >>>> everybody on the list got everything more or less instantly, >>>> which also >>>> meant a higher level of social awareness and social control of >>>> what goes >>>> on on the list. Today, many people filter the lists they >>>> subscribe to and >>>> only look at the postings at irregular intervals - some >>>> mailboxes don't >>>> get opened for months. Like this, people consume the list >>>> passively and do >>>> not even notice a fiasco like the one that we experienced on the >>>> Syndicate >>>> list in the summer. I guess that some people who remain >>>> subscribed to the >>>> Syndicate list still have not noticed that anything has changed. >>>> For a >>>> social community, that kind of behaviour - automated deferance - >>>> can be >>>> fatal." >>>> >>>> <nettime> Rise and Decline of the Syndicate >>>> http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0111/msg00077.html >>>> >>>> wishing all well. >>>> >>>> marc >>>>> Interesting, it reminds me about doctress Neutopia, >>>>> >>>> http://projectwhitehouse.wordpress.com/democrats/libby-hubbard-aka-doctress >>>> -neutopia-free-the-slaves >>>>> a selfnamed prophet and the founder of a new religion at the >>>> beginning of the Net, around 1995. >>>>> She terrorized many online communities and was expelled from many >>>> forums. >>>>> Ana >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:25 PM, marc garrett >>>> <marc.garr...@furtherfield.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Netochka Nezvanova. >>>>> >>>>> One of the most famous and infamous EccentricCharacters in >>>>> turn?of?the?21st Century Western artistic NetworkCulture, Netochka >>>>> Nezvanova (aka N.N., antiorp, integer, Irena Sabine Czubera) >>>> remains an >>>>> enigma to many. Widely believed to be an IdentityCollective?, >>>> Netochka >>>>> Nezvanova is a PenName named after the title character in [an >>>> early >>>>> unfinished Fyodor Dostoevsky novel] whose name means "nameless >>>> nobody" >>>>> in Russian. The identity always presents itself as female, >>>> though >>>> it may >>>>> not be in reality. Despite the meaning of her moniker, N.N. has >>>> coveted >>>>> attention and recognition like few others on the Internet. >>>>> >>>>> http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/NetochkaNezvanova >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> http://www.twitter.com/caravia15852 >>>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/art-and-activism/ >>>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/food-history-and-trivia >>>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/gender-issues/ >>>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/literary-exiles/ >>>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/museums-and-ethics/ >>>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/urbanism-3-0 >>>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/postcolonial-mind/ >>>>> >>>>> mobil/cell +4670-3213370 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth >>>> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you >>>> will always long to return. >>>>> ? Leonardo da Vinci >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>>> -- >>>> http://www.twitter.com/caravia15852 >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/art-and-activism/ >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/food-history-and-trivia >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/gender-issues/ >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/literary-exiles/ >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/museums-and-ethics/ >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/urbanism-3-0 >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/postcolonial-mind/ >>>> mobil/cell +4670-3213370 >>>> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with >>>> your >>>> eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always long >>>> to return. >>>> ? Leonardo da Vinci >>>> >>> >>> == >>> eyebeam: http://eyebeam.org/blogs/alansondheim/ >>> email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >>> web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 347-383-8552 >>> music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ >>> current text http://www.alansondheim.org/re.txt >>> ==_______________________________________________ >>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >> >> Simon Biggs | si...@littlepig.org.uk | www.littlepig.org.uk >> >> s.bi...@ed.ac.uk | Edinburgh College of Art | University of Edinburgh >> www.eca.ac.uk/circle | www.elmcip.net | www.movingtargets.co.uk >> >> >> Simon Biggs | si...@littlepig.org.uk | www.littlepig.org.uk >> >> s.bi...@ed.ac.uk | Edinburgh College of Art | University of Edinburgh >> www.eca.ac.uk/circle | www.elmcip.net | www.movingtargets.co.uk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >> > > == > eyebeam: http://eyebeam.org/blogs/alansondheim/ > email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ > web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 347-383-8552 > music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ > current text http://www.alansondheim.org/re.txt > == > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list > NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > Simon Biggs | si...@littlepig.org.uk | www.littlepig.org.uk s.bi...@ed.ac.uk | Edinburgh College of Art | University of Edinburgh www.eca.ac.uk/circle | www.elmcip.net | www.movingtargets.co.uk _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
