If you will note, I was speaking of back when; and yes, most tanks are probably ABS now, along with a not of other parts that don't need to resist a lot of heat and yet can withstand most of the heat under a normal hood. I was referring to your seemingly knee-jerk reaction to people who get very vociferous when ethanol and methanol are mentioned.
Yes, alcohols, being covalent, take either or and by nature suck up water; and hence, cause problems in rusting tanks, without rust inhibitors. It - alcohol - may hold water tightly, but it is still present and is in contact with the surfaces of the tank, lines, etc. And again, I was referring to persons who have been through the experience and don't like the results. Ford in particular had a styrofoam float in their carbs that dissolved after a few tankfuls. Others have experienced serious troubles with small engines, and it is for the reasons you mention: the chemical composition of rubber parts being susceptible to the ethanol. They dry out prematurely and can no longer function. I aquired a virtually brand new edger because the diaphragm carburetor's diaphragm became too stiff to move the gasoline. I am no chemist, no chemical engineer, but I know experientially and anecdotally the problems caused by ethanol, and I think that there are times when the percentage is a lot more than they are claiming, because of the seriousness of the resulting problems. Carb diaphragms don't go stiff that quickly. One practically needs to use fuel saver to protect the more delicate parts of the carburetors of older lawn mower and other small engines. Personally I don't care for ethanol in my fuel, and I don't like the dictators telling me what they think is good for me either. I am intelligent enough that I don't need some elite Harvard or Brown or Cornel --- on and on ad nauseam -grad telling me what is best for me. I don't like the government, like Jefferson, telling me to give my money to some high paid do-nothing exec at Chrysler or GM when they deserve to fail for lack of innovation and for the laws that they had promulgated to protect themselves from people who might have something more efficient and safer and better performing to offer. Like I said in another post, Honda would never have gotten his bikes and cars off to a start if he had been born in the States. Tucker was, and look what they did to him. We would not be experiencing this conversation. And I am not convinced that the alcohol, even though it holds the water, is not going to cause problems with it being present therein. My 250 Honda did perform better and achieve better mileage on Shell; and now that I am thinking of it, it probably was because back then, there wasn't any ethanol in their gasoline. It (my 250) performed better on Shell regular than it did on Murphy mid or high grade. Or Racetrac. And Petron wasn't the one delivering to Shell. That's the local tanker distributor serving almost all of the generic and some brand name stations in this area. By perform, I mean better acceleration, better top speed, better mileage. And better idle also. ________________________________ From: Paul <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, October 14, 2010 12:13:31 PM Subject: Re: [Nighthawk Lovers] Slightly OT... Fuel Come on Kurt...don't hold back on us here. Tell us how you REALLY feel! ;) Actually, this terrific information. I appreciate the diatribe. Paul On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Kurt Nolte <[email protected]> wrote: Ethanol is not corrosive to anything made of steel, anodized aluminum, >and a broad array of other materials. Ethanol will screw up brass and >bronze if you let them soak in it, but not in low percentages. >/Methanol/ is the broadly corrosive alcohol, assaulting even anodized >aluminum. Buna rubbers are compatible with low percentage blends (less >than 30% by most sources), the various vitons are not so tolerant, >PTFE is impervious and nitrile so-so. > >Ethanol also does not cause rust, sorry. Water causes rust. Ethanol, >methanol and isopropyl alcohols are used to remove the water from >gasoline, have been for ages, specifically because they entrain water >and hold it tightly. The "dewatering" solutions sold in bottles at >FLAPS and chain stores are pretty much all one alcohol or another. >Usually methanol or isopropyl, they do a better job of sucking up >moisture into azeotropes. > >Talking about styrofoam carburetor floats as a reason to avoid the 10% >these days is, sorry, an incredibly stodgy reaction. Nothing today >uses a styrofoam carburetor float. Very few things are even >carbureted, relative to the massive percentage of 90s+ vehicles in >usage today. Modern fuel tanks are frequently plastic, again no rust >issues. PTFE and PTFE lined fuel lines and hoses are the norm. Fuel >injectors have been built with components that are ethanol compatible >from almost the very beginning. > >It happened before, sure. But that kind of thinking (well it sucked >once, let's never do that again) is why diesels aren't more common in >the US, among other issues. > >I'm not disregarding truth, because the reasons you list hold little >truth today. There is /no reason/ for the claim that ethanol will >"destroy" any engine built after the mid-90s, and most on-road engines >are compatible back to the early 80s. Perpetuating that claim only >disregards the advances that have been made and the modern truths in >favor of the archaic truth. > >This also includes the truth that, as an additive to gasoline, ethanol >performs more functions with greater efficacy and lower toxicity than >most of the chemicals in the noxious soup that is gasoline. Increased >ethanol content can allow the total phase-out of the highly toxic >MTBE, for instance, which seems has a horrid habit of getting out of >tanks and contaminating ground water supplies. Ethanol can be used to >replace portions of benzine in gasoline, another nasty carcinogen >(though it can't entirely replace it). Ethanol can replace oxygenating >compounds (which add no caloric value and carry their own secondary >products that must be catalytically reduced in the exhaust stream) in >fuel, and ethanol solvency reduces deposit formation in vehicles with >high mileage or infrequent usage and long storage times. > >Research in the field has also posited, though it's in the process of >being repeated and validated, that /unmodified/ modern vehicles will >return better mileage on E20 than they will on E0, despite E20 having >a significantly lower energy content per gallon. Exhaust streams on >such vehicles were similarly improved. There is the unfortunate >reaction with much higher blends (70+%) producing a measurable >quantity of formaldehyde from their exhaust stream, due to reactions >with (gasoline optimised) catalytic converters, but there are >technologies already in use that could eliminate this issue while >serving the same purpose for ethanol fueled cars that the converters >already serve for gasoline cars. > >If you had a classic from the 40s or 50s (or 60s, I suppose) that the >sudden switch to ethanol destroyed some part of, my condolences. There >are replacement parts for "classic" carburetors that will withstand >the stuff these days, and some absolutely fantastic pourable linings >for steel fuel tanks getting on in their years. They're a good idea >even if you run "straight gas" (another misnomer, given the 200+ >compounds in wildly variable proportions that make up "Gasoline"), as >just the age of the tank will have caused some corrosion from natural >forces. > >Politics aside, there's no reason to continue beating that dead horse. >I can understand people being torqued off about subsidies and ag >companies and all that trap, but there is no /mechanical or scientific >evidence for the claims being made by people with respect to their >fuel mileage and engine longevity today./ N.O.N.E. And no, I will not >have compassion for you if you perpetuate this claim based on >experiences now nearly thirty years out of date involving technology >that's even older. > >-Kurt > > >On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 10:48 AM, stanley/ Randolph <[email protected]> wrote: >> well, a lot of carburetors back when this happened the first time had floats >> of styrofoam and the ethanol destroyed them, hence the reason for part of >> that furor. So it's not a bunch of hogwash. Ethanol is also corrosive, and >> that's another issue. Rusting gas tanks led to particles of rust clogging >> passages in carbs and poor performance. >> The fuel would have to have rust inhibitors added and/or fuel tanks of >> stainless, fuel lines of stainless or some other non-corrosive >> material, or other alternatives. >> It's not hogwash. And if your expensive car performed poorly or broke down, >> you would get emotional about it also, and read the other post I wrote to >> read the rest of that side of the coin. >> Honda never made styrofoam floats and they didn't have that problem; >> however, they did and do have the rusty gas tank problem, and the carb >> problems because of the rust. And the petcock problems. >> The disregard of the truth in your also emotional outburst is disappointing >> as your attitude toward those who lived through it. Have some compassion >> and understanding. >> > > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >"Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" group. >To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >[email protected]. >For more options, visit this group at >http://groups.google.com/group/nighthawk_lovers?hl=en. > > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nighthawk_lovers?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. 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