----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:27 PM Subject: Re: A clue to understand USA
JM: You (someone who, it must be recalled, has never been shy in sharing his, um,. er, what's the right word.... ah, "musings" with the list) wrote an incoherent message trying to make a point about the US-Israel relationship with such examples as the development of the A-bomb and of financial derivatives. MM: Incoherent? Didn't you say you understood my point. (JM: "I think I understand the point you are trying to make now" 1/10). John, you are inconsistent all the way! JM: On top of everything else, that message was prefaced by the title "A clue to understand USA", a heading that one must say was a wee bit portentous and more than a little disappointing given the "musings" that it prefaced. And it was one of many posts that you have made about Israel and Palestine in the last few weeks, so complaining about the length of my one response strikes me as a bit disingenuous. MM: I was intentionally circumventing and suggesting the similarity between US and Israel before soemone can see the true reason why US is supporting Israel. I was afraid of saying bluntly that both countries are created on the same original sin of capturing someone's land and almost annihilating the original inhabitants. I was hoping that someone, maybe you, would notice where I was pointing to indirectly. JM: My lengthy response was an effort to put US policy in the region and towards Israel in particular into some historical perspective - that is, it was an effort to address the question that you had repeatedly raised over the preceding two weeks - and was pitched at a level that a general reader with passable knowledge of the post-WWII history of the Middle East could grasp. My own feeling about the discussion up to that point was that it was languishing in what historian's sometimes term an "empirical vacuum"; once the facts are established, one can debate various ways to interpret them, but when the facts are unknown or are simply wrong (Alan), then intelligent debate suffers. MM: You always seem to assume people are not as knowledgeable as you are. On the other hand, what you are saying is always someone's interpretation of the facts. Reading others' thoughts are affecting you too much and you seem to assume what you read are always correct. Think, John., think. JM: As for your current question, which appears to be about the UN resolution (though I am sure I will learn shortly from a subsequent e-mail that this is not it at all; you keep shifting the ground of the debate, Minoru, and it is rather me who should be asking you to exercise some discipline and focus), once again, the short answer is: Go to Wikipedia, or go to a library, and read something about it yourself. It should be abundantly clear from my messages that several factors influenced Truman's decision to support the partition resolution: (1) Lobbying by US Jewish organizations; (2) Truman's sympathy for the Jews, due to his own Christian beliefs and the Shoah; and (3) Truman's own political fortunes. For Christ's sake, next thing you will be asking me to read you "Run Spot Run"! This is ridiculous. Read something about the issue for yourself, I wouldn't have to pitch it at this level if you put in some effort. MM: I don't have any disagreement with your three points (1) - (3). The problem with you is that you have not clarified the discrepancy between the statement above and your original statement about Truman's act (you stated originally: "Truman supported the creation of the state of Israel"). You seem to be avoiding the answer to my question: did Truman did or did not support the creation of the state of Israel? JM: You now also seem to be blaming Truman for the problem of "terrorism" in the Middle East. MM: I am not blaming as I explained in my previous post. I will reiterate my statement, "it was a silly act to allow the establishment of the state of Israle in the land which belong to other people" once you admit you meant truly what you said originally "Truman helped ..." JM: Sorry if that is overly pedantic for you, but I would bet others find it relatively concise and to the point. And I will gladly debate it with them if they wish. MM: You are free to bet whatever you wish. I don't care what other think. You seem to be always relying on what other people think. In my view, you are pedantic, meaning that you are not thinking on your own and you say something refering to someone's rendition of the fact and refer to another's rendition when you are criticized. JM: As for another one of your questions the other day, namely why I write posts to the list, well, you guessed it, Minoru, I am using Not Honyaku as a forum to make friends and influence people. Someone in the Obama campaign did in fact read my posts here, and invited me down to DC last week to nosh with Barry over a game of one-on-one. MM: Congratulations, John. You finally may find a job. Or, is it going to be a job? JM: But seriously, Minoru, there are three explanations for why I write my posts to the list. I will let you choose one: MM: I don't care for what reasons you post here, although I suppose your motive may be similar to mine. I am just having fun doing this. Nothing more. I don't have much sympathy to Jews or Palestinians. JM: Well, there we have it. I suppose I have once again exceeded my allotted word count, but then again, you are not moderating the list, Minoru, nor are you my schoolmarm, so your opinion about this is just that, another one of your opinions. For my part, I would appreciate it if you toned down your posts. They seem to be seething with various forms of envy and resentment. Not good for the soul, Minoru. MM: There is no allotment and I am not a moderator as you guessed right. (I see you are right sometimes.) I generally hate moderators. Do I envy you? Why? I feel some resentment for you for not being more concise and avoiding my straightforward questions. Not good for the soul? Yeah, you may be right on that one too. Minoru p.s. I normally don't respond to every bit, but I decided to do so, just once, for fun. It is a great joy for not having to apologize anybody, as I know no body is forced to read this through. Hooray for no moderators! --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Persons posting messages to not_honyaku assume all responsibility for their messages. The list owner does not review messages prior to posting, and accepts no responsibility for the content of messages posted. -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
