Yeah Ron but how do you manage that when there are 10 VFX houses working on your movie? Big companies like Technicolor/MPC and Deluxe/Method/(all of former Ascent Media) are huge corporations that aren't in the creative business for any other reason then to make money. So if the management of those power players can get it cheap and don't care about burn out and turn over because schools will replenish the supply yearly. They Keep there top staff happy and everything and everyone else is disposable as long as it keeps the bottom line in the black. That then forces most others into that game to compete. I don't know if it affects ILM, Weta, and Pixar but i'm sure it does at some level. I have a friend that is a mid that was just hired at $18/h (canadian) and they wouldn't budge. He either took it or didn't get the job. This is one of the largest VFX houses in the world doing this. I wish it could be like smaller movies with 200-400 shots all done at one place. I just don't see how that works on a movie with 2400 shots spread across multiple companies. There must be a way to do it with cinesync and dailies and such but maybe its just to much when its not planned out well at the very get go. Look what happened with Red Tails. Whole sections of animation just totally redone after delivery. OUCH. That then put a hurt on some companies Money and time wise. So now they can't afford to higher seniors and by measure can not afford to not hire seniors. What a mess.
Randy S. Little http://www.rslittle.com/ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2325729/ On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Ron Ganbar <ron...@gmail.com> wrote: > I had a similar experience on three separate occasions. > The teams were always smaller (up to 60 people including producers and > everyone else), and the director was ALWAYS IN THE ROOM with us. I must say > it was so rewarding and everyone felt we got the best value for the money > spent, and that every cent of the meager budgets we worked on ended up on > the screen. > However, whenever the director was not an integral part of the post > production process, working this efficiently has always proven very > difficult. > You spend a lot of time second guessing what the director will want, what > he meant. The turnaround becomes slow. > > > > > > Ron Ganbar > email: ron...@gmail.com > tel: +44 (0)7968 007 309 [UK] > +972 (0)54 255 9765 [Israel] > url: http://ronganbar.wordpress.com/ > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Fredrik Pihl <fre...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Feeling the urge to comment.... :) >> >> Been comping for 20something years - and do my daily chores as VFX >> producer nowadays. >> I find our business pretty mis-managed on so many levels - so no wonder >> all the growing pains we've started to go through recently (we're not even >> close to done with that yet). >> There is so much to be done in this area, how to manage projects, >> artists, tech and clients, and pretty radical measures need to be taken - >> and I now know it makes all the difference in the world. >> >> I was asked to take over a project that had more or less completely >> crashed. The project involved some 3600 shots in three features, and at the >> time it crashed one flick was nearly done but one company was bankrupt and >> all money was used up. And the remaining two films w their 2200 shots was >> not even close to start being worked on. >> I was most hesitant to the task - because the extra money asked to >> complete the project was - not very much - even by "eastern standards" >> (still remember the reply of a Bombay manager with his typical indian >> accent - "Dat iz not wery much money... are you joking?"...). >> But I asked the production company to get complete freedom in how to >> manage the project - and in the dire straits the were in - I got a *GO*to be >> "unorthodox". >> >> This is actually a very long tale that should be told in detail, some >> day.. - it almost became an "involuntary" pilot test project of how things >> can be done, in resonance with what Scott Ross et alumni have been talking >> about... >> >> But in short - by extreme managing use of resources, artists and a >> specially tailored pipeline.. trying new schemes and ways of having a good >> mix of leads and juniors, we got it done on time, on budget.. in a *good >> enough* quality - without sending it abroad - without underpaying people >> - without unpaid overtime (in fact no overtime) - without giving artists >> stomach ache. And by ridding the word "post" out of postproductionVFXs... >> we got the client extremely involved so that every cent spent ended up as a >> pixel and nothing else. >> >> It has been a really exciting thing to be able to do it on such a meager >> budget and NOT having people suffer. >> >> //fredd >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Ean Carr <m...@eancarr.com> wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately, companies often do not value experience because it seems >>>> expensive on paper, when all they do is compare the hourly/daily rate for >>>> juniors and seniors; particularly when those companies are managed by >>>> accountant type people that don't understand or want to understand the >>>> actual work the company is doing. >>> >>> >>> I couldn't agree more. Only one or two vfx companies worldwide seem to >>> "get it". >>> >>> -Ean >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 1:02 AM, Frank Rueter|OHUfx <fr...@ohufx.com>wrote: >>> >>>> >>In short, being senior is not just about being great, it's about >>>> achieving the quality on time and in budget. If you >>can do that then you >>>> may be worth your expectations. >>>> >>>> I couldn't agree more. It's years of experience that enables people to >>>> delivery within the context of a show and problem solve with the right >>>> priorities in mind, not just the skill to make something look amazing >>>> (regardless of the time and resources it may require). This sort of >>>> experience should enable you to keep your value as an artist up. while you >>>> may be way more expensive than a junior, you will need way less time to >>>> deliver what's required, so the bottom line for the employer is not an >>>> increases payroll, but a more efficient delivery schedule. >>>> >>>> I have had juniors on my team who, despite not being able to do the >>>> tricky comps, turned out to be more effective in the grand scheme than some >>>> of the seniors. >>>> >>>> The right combo of experienced seniors/leads and juniors can be quite >>>> amazing in terms of efficiency *and* quality. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, companies often do not value experience because it seems >>>> expensive on paper, when all they do is compare the hourly/daily rate for >>>> juniors and seniors; particularly when those companies are managed by >>>> accountant type people that don't understand or want to understand the >>>> actual work the company is doing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16/03/14 13:20, Howard Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> Taking this from a different angle. >>>> >>>> Not every show is uber VFX. Some shows cannot afford that level or >>>> even require that level. They still need VFX. Does that mean they can't >>>> afford senior compositors? >>>> >>>> No, if anything it means they cant afford not to hire seniors. >>>> >>>> Why? Because if budgets are tight, you need to hit the ground >>>> running. >>>> >>>> So hypothetically thinking... I need to hire a senior, not because >>>> the work is uber-hard or requires uberVFX. It doesn't (always). It's hard >>>> enough, requires consummate keying skills/ problem solving but it's not >>>> cutting edge. Too hard for a genuine mid range artist, requires a senior. >>>> >>>> Now here's the problem. Finding a senior who can tailor their VFX to >>>> suit the budget. I dont want cheap crap, I don't need uberVFX, I need good >>>> enough and fast. >>>> >>>> Often I find a lot of time is wasted getting the seniors to work down >>>> to the show's expectations and budget. In short too much pixel fucking. >>>> >>>> However at the end of the day I would still want a senior and pay >>>> what is affordable. Just a good senior on a simpler show should be faster, >>>> less demanding, than a junior/mid. (If only) >>>> >>>> I guess there are a range of shops you can go to to fill up your >>>> trolley, but if you pay a bit more you expect a better quality. Whether >>>> quality translates to good enough and fast or perfect and considered, >>>> depends on show budget. However good enough and slow at a premium rate is >>>> just a waste. >>>> >>>> In short, being senior is not just about being great, it's about >>>> achieving the quality on time and in budget. If you can do that then you >>>> may be worth your expectations. >>>> >>>> Howard >>>> >>>> On 15 Mar 2014, at 02:53, Neil Scholes <n...@uvfilms.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> Absofrigin-lutley! >>>> >>>> Very interesting thread, and considering the shear skill set needed >>>> and uber high level of expertise required for great vfx creation, the right >>>> price can always be negotiated confidently and reasonably. >>>> >>>> >>>> Neil Scholes >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 14 Mar 2014, at 23:37, adam jones <adam....@mac.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> well said frank. >>>> >>>> you have put into word in an elegant way what I try and explain to >>>> people all of the time, its a slow road but the more artists that think >>>> this way the easier it will become. >>>> >>>> cheers >>>> -adam >>>> >>>> >>>> On 15/03/2014, at 10:20 AM, Frank Rueter|OHUfx <fr...@ohufx.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Either way, most qualified people I know tend to be under paid, and >>>> based on my experience, companies will always try to take the piss as the >>>> people that negotiate with you often don't have a clue where your skill set >>>> fits into their copmany, and what you actually bring to the table - and >>>> most don't want to know either. >>>> >>>> To quote somebody from a local python mailing list: >>>> "The criteria used for hiring often don't match the culture in the >>>> workplace. " >>>> >>>> This can easily be transferred to rates and quality of work, i.e. "the >>>> rates offered to the artists often don't match the expected performance" >>>> >>>> I have had requests from some of the big facilities basically asking me >>>> if I know a junior that could do what I do. Of course they used different >>>> words and tried to make me feel honoured that they would ask me for my >>>> opinion. My reply was "you get what you pay for" - never heard anything >>>> again from them. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that we all need to be a bit >>>> more accountable as to the rate we aim for. Aim too low, and you may get >>>> the job today, but you will become part of the problem, and the ongoing >>>> commoditisation of top vfx experience, and your work will not be valued. >>>> One argument I have learned to never accept from the big facilities when >>>> they try to hire you for another million dollar blockbuster is "it's not in >>>> our budget". that is the lamest excuse. It's like going to the shops, >>>> filling up your trolly and telling the check out girl that the total price >>>> is not in your budget - and expect a friendly "oh, well , that's fine then >>>> - have a good day". >>>> >>>> One of the most challenging parts of my career has been to figure out >>>> for myself what I really think my work is worth, rather than what I think I >>>> can get away with. It's been 18 years and am still struggling with that :-D >>>> >>>> frank >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/15/14, 12:55 AM, Steve Newbold wrote: >>>> >>>> That's kind of my point. You'll find plenty of 'seniors' on less than >>>> 45K in small facilities in London, and yup you hit the nail on the head, >>>> people who stay in one company for a long time, get their 1-2% pay rise >>>> every year (when not in the perpetual pay freeze) and have zero concept oh >>>> how they stack up with other artists at other facilities. It's not like it >>>> used to be. It's a double edged sword where its very hard to progress >>>> unless you stick around for a bit, so you either move around, follow the >>>> money and do the shots, or stay put and try and work your way up. >>>> >>>> But anyway... Nuke eh? ;) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/03/14 11:45, Gustaf Nilsson wrote: >>>> >>>> If you are a senior on 170 a day then you must either be the worst >>>> negotiator on the planet or have stayed at the same company for too long. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Steve Newbold <s...@dneg.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> UK companies seem to be very good at making sure that there is no such >>>>> thing as average or 'typical' day rate and its more down to how desperate >>>>> they are and how good you are at talking and whether you mean senior as in >>>>> 'been doing it for a while', or senior as in 'can do the hard stuff' - the >>>>> two can be different things depending on the company you are applying to. >>>>> >>>>> I would say between £170-£220 per day is typical for seniors in London >>>>> depending on the facility, more for leads and more again for sups. At >>>>> this >>>>> moment there is high demand for compositors but very short contracts so >>>>> you >>>>> might be able to get a good deal if you are willing to move companies >>>>> every >>>>> three months. There is also very little difference between pay for film >>>>> or >>>>> commercials in the UK, so don't let anyone try that move on you...! >>>>> >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 13/03/14 21:42, adam jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey all >>>>>> >>>>>> I was wondering if some one could inform me of an average day rate >>>>>> for a senior nuke comper in the UK. london or bristol >>>>>> >>>>>> off list replies are fine if you like. >>>>>> >>>>>> cheers all >>>>>> -adam >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nuke-users mailing listnuke-us...@support.thefoundry.co.uk, >>>> http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nuke-users mailing listnuke-us...@support.thefoundry.co.uk, >>>> http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> <ohufxLogo_50x50.png> <http://www.ohufx.com/> *vfx compositing >>>> <http://ohufx.com/index.php/vfx-compositing> | workflow customisation and >>>> consulting <http://ohufx.com/index.php/vfx-customising> * >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nuke-users mailing listnuke-us...@support.thefoundry.co.uk, >>>> http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> [image: ohufxLogo 50x50] <http://www.ohufx.com> *vfx compositing >>>> <http://ohufx.com/index.php/vfx-compositing> | workflow customisation and >>>> consulting <http://ohufx.com/index.php/vfx-customising> * >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nuke-users mailing list >>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> ______________________________________________________ >> *Fredrik Pihl - **visual effects supervisor - **visual effects producer* >> *UNITED IMAGE CREATORS AB* >> rönnvägen 11, se-14144 huddinge, sweden >> +46-721 86 58 40 >> >> >> >> >> >> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message is intended only for the >> above-mentioned recipient(s). Its content is confidential. If you have >> received this e-mail by error, please notify us immediately and deleteit >> without making a copy, nor disclosing its content, nor taking anyaction >> based thereon. Thank you. *ツ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nuke-users mailing list >> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Nuke-users mailing list > Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ > http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >
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