Hi all, This is an interesting idea, and one worth discussing. However, I’m afraid I agree with Danese. It is not, at the end of the analysis, a useful idea.
Businesses will (do) very much dislike time-limited IP. I know it is a preference in today’s Silicon Valley to “fail fast”, but the commercial reality is that many startups that do succeed require ten years or more to do so. Also, IP valuations often form the basis for company valuations. Cleanly licensed and documented Open Source code is fine, but time bombs are bombs. They explode. Such licenses would be avoided by any self-respecting startup engineering manager, including myself. I would avoid them as I avoid the GPL v2. My preference would always be to use clean, simple licenses, and know that (perhaps non-intuitively) good things come from that. My previous companies have purchased commercial licenses from Open Source developers, hired Open Source developers, released a lot of Open Source code, and even sold Open Source projects to commercial companies. It is not the only way, but it is a good way. To paraphrase a common economic saying, markets hate uncertainty. The idea of a time-limited license injects uncertainty into an already perilous investment; Will the startup succeed within the time allotted? Regards, Dave -- http://about.me/david_wood > On Jun 5, 2015, at 10:26, Fergal Byrne <[email protected]> wrote: > > Oops [1] https://twitter.com/rmsthebot <https://twitter.com/rmsthebot> > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Fergal Byrne <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Hi Danese, > > Thanks for that, I'm not surprised. I'm sure everything's been tried! > > In this case, you get a source code license with the commercial TBOL, and the > license is also transitive from the outset of the license being taken out. So > the copyright owner has already committed to the time-bomb, and can't change > their mind. Anyone holding the source code than open source it once the time > bomb goes off. > > Interestingly, the (parody?) Stallman account [1] faved my friend's tweet > about this! > > (For the list, Danese is the expert on these matters who helped Numenta to go > Open Source, so she's a friend of the project) > > Kind Regards, > > Fergal > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Danese Cooper <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Fergal et al, > > Not a new idea (Richard Stallman suggested this compromise to Sun for Java in > 2000)...but also not one that has taken off in the Open Source world, mostly > in the wake of ownership changes (such a Oracle taking over all of Sun's > important open source projects and systematically screwing them all up). The > problem with a time-bombed licensing scheme is ... Time. Circumstances > change. Copyright holders get cold feet. Future promises start to sound like > the Whimpy character in Popeye comics, who would "Gladly pay you Tuesday for > a hamburger today". > > My $.02 > D > > On Jun 5, 2015, at 6:09 AM, Fergal Byrne <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> No such thing as a stupid question David, just the ones you don't ask! This >> is a (barely) 4-day old idea, so it'll have wrinkles. Please test to >> destruction. >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Fergal Byrne <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> If you're a small startup, and you want to build an Open Source project so >> that you have extra help developing it, you're currently stuck never earning >> money directly from the product (you're reduced to secondary income from >> support, consultancy and so on). You might not have the resources to build >> it all yourself (we don't all live in the Valley and have the ears of >> investors), and developing your own commercial license is tricky and >> expensive. >> >> This idea gives you a chance to combine the best of both, and avoid the >> worst. It also reassures investors that your customers will not be lost in >> the event your startup fails, because it reverts to an open source project. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 2:02 PM, cogmission (David Ray) >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Hmmm. Then I don't see the advantage? It's like having your intellectual >> property torn out from under you after 4 years? :P lol! >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 7:48 AM, Fergal Byrne <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> No, that's exactly what it says you can't do! You have to go 100% Open >> Source after 2-4 years, you have to monetize before then. On the other hand, >> you can start again with a new major version of your product, but the old >> version will have to have been fully opened up. >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 1:43 PM, cogmission (David Ray) >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Assuming the business in question is fully able to monetize their initial >> offering within 4 years, they could then (after being bombed :-P) opt for a >> full commercial license with full fees. I like it! It offers a way to charge >> a minimal affordable fee initially while the business model awaits >> confirmation - while still offering the original rights owner the ability to >> capitalize later when affordable by the customer. >> >> Interesting... >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 7:26 AM, Fergal Byrne <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Hi guys, >> >> After a wonderful weekend at the hackathon, Richard Crowder and I were >> brainstorming as we walked around Manhattan on Monday. We came up with a new >> (or new twist on an) idea for dual Open Source/Commercial projects. We call >> it the Time-bombed Open License [1]. >> >> The idea is that you release your software under something strongly >> copylefted like the GPL for non-commercial use. For commercial users (who >> often can't use GPL software inside their own codebase or business), you >> charge a fee to absolve the customer from all the GPL obligations, but with >> a catch. >> >> Your ability to operate the commercial license is time-bombed for 2-4 years, >> after which time it becomes fully GPL (or whichever your OSS license is). >> This is transitive, so your customers must also start a time-bomb of the >> same length. >> >> We'd welcome feedback on this idea from you guys, and wonder would this be >> of interest for Numenta's commercial license for NuPIC? It might also be >> worth thinking about for nupic-community projects (this would involve >> Numenta granting commercialisation rights to these projects). >> >> Regards, >> >> Fergal Byrne >> >> >> [1] http://occupystartups.me <http://occupystartups.me/>-- >> >> Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT >> >> http://inbits.com <http://inbits.com/> - Better Living through Thoughtful >> Technology >> http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ <http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/> >> - https://github.com/fergalbyrne <https://github.com/fergalbyrne> >> >> Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure - >> https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex >> <https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex> >> >> Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC >> Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines >> <https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines> >> >> e:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> t:+353 83 >> 4214179 <tel:%2B353%2083%204214179> >> Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org >> <http://numenta.org/> >> Formerly of Adnet [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://www.adnet.ie <http://www.adnet.ie/> >> >> >> >> -- >> With kind regards, >> >> David Ray >> Java Solutions Architect >> >> Cortical.io <http://cortical.io/> >> Sponsor of: HTM.java <https://github.com/numenta/htm.java> >> >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://cortical.io <http://cortical.io/> >> >> >> -- >> >> Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT >> >> http://inbits.com <http://inbits.com/> - Better Living through Thoughtful >> Technology >> http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ <http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/> >> - https://github.com/fergalbyrne <https://github.com/fergalbyrne> >> >> Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure - >> https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex >> <https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex> >> >> Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC >> Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines >> <https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines> >> >> e:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> t:+353 83 >> 4214179 <tel:%2B353%2083%204214179> >> Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org >> <http://numenta.org/> >> Formerly of Adnet [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://www.adnet.ie <http://www.adnet.ie/> >> >> >> >> -- >> With kind regards, >> >> David Ray >> Java Solutions Architect >> >> Cortical.io <http://cortical.io/> >> Sponsor of: HTM.java <https://github.com/numenta/htm.java> >> >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://cortical.io <http://cortical.io/> >> >> >> -- >> >> Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT >> >> http://inbits.com <http://inbits.com/> - Better Living through Thoughtful >> Technology >> http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ <http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/> >> - https://github.com/fergalbyrne <https://github.com/fergalbyrne> >> >> Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure - >> https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex >> <https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex> >> >> Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC >> Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines >> <https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines> >> >> e:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> t:+353 83 >> 4214179 <tel:%2B353%2083%204214179> >> Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org >> <http://numenta.org/> >> Formerly of Adnet [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://www.adnet.ie <http://www.adnet.ie/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT >> >> http://inbits.com <http://inbits.com/> - Better Living through Thoughtful >> Technology >> http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ <http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/> >> - https://github.com/fergalbyrne <https://github.com/fergalbyrne> >> >> Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure - >> https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex >> <https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex> >> >> Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC >> Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines >> <https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines> >> >> e:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> t:+353 83 >> 4214179 <tel:%2B353%2083%204214179> >> Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org >> <http://numenta.org/> >> Formerly of Adnet [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://www.adnet.ie <http://www.adnet.ie/> > > > > -- > > Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT @fergbyrne > > http://inbits.com <http://inbits.com/> - Better Living through Thoughtful > Technology > http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ <http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/> - > https://github.com/fergalbyrne <https://github.com/fergalbyrne> > > Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure - > https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex > <https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex> > Co-creator @OccupyStartups Time-Bombed Open License http://occupystartups.me > <http://occupystartups.me/> > > Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC > Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines > <https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines> > > e:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> t:+353 83 > 4214179 <tel:%2B353%2083%204214179> > Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org > <http://numenta.org/> > Formerly of Adnet [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > http://www.adnet.ie <http://www.adnet.ie/> > > > > -- > > Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT @fergbyrne > > http://inbits.com <http://inbits.com/> - Better Living through Thoughtful > Technology > http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ <http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/> - > https://github.com/fergalbyrne <https://github.com/fergalbyrne> > > Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure - > https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex > <https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex> > Co-creator @OccupyStartups Time-Bombed Open License http://occupystartups.me > <http://occupystartups.me/> > > Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC > Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines > <https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines> > > e:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> t:+353 83 > 4214179 > Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org > <http://numenta.org/> > Formerly of Adnet [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > http://www.adnet.ie <http://www.adnet.ie/>
