Agreed, As I said earlier "I expect basic things like spelling and grammar from content writers, W3C compliance from web developers and laces in shoes; if I don't get them I spend my money elsewhere."
In the last 6 months I've paid to have several simple websites developed and I simply wouldn't commission someone who tells me standards don't matter to work on my projects. Bruce "I don't care what shade of blue the Newmarket flyover is, as long as it stays up" Clement On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Dave Lane <[email protected]> wrote: > +1 - excellent response, Keri. > > For any other developers out there, if Keri's explanation doesn't convince > you to to generate valid markup, perhaps an added incentive is that > increasingly your customers are becoming aware of web standards and their > inherent value, and if you're not conforming to them by default, you're > unprofessional. > > If web standards don't matter to you, then we certainly wouldn't hire you. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > On 17/03/10 15:35, Keri Henare wrote: >> >> Validation isn't like IE bug fixing. If you spend more than 10 >> minutes fixing validation errors then you're doing it wrong. People >> who ignore validation don't learn the rules and therefore create lots >> more validation errors. I'm a big believer in validation but I >> almost never use the validator anymore because I almost never write >> invalid HTML. Learn the rules and then you won't keep breaking >> them. >> >> A valid site is a site than conforms to the specification. What's >> the point in writing HTML if you aren't going to bother to write >> valid HTML? Actually, if it's not valid by the specification then >> it's not HTML is it, because the spec tells you what is HTML and >> you've written something else. >> >> If a client is told that HTML validation would "waste hours of time" >> then they should go and find somebody who knows what they're doing. >> No client should pay for a developer to go back and fix their own >> bugs. >> >> The single most important reason for staying valid is that it helps >> you to find bugs in markup. When a layout breaks the first thing >> that I do is validate the page, because if the bug is markup related >> it'll stick out like a sore thumb. >> >> Kind regards, Keri Henare >> --------------------------------------------------- [e] >> [email protected] [w] kerihenare.com [m] (+64) 021 874 552 >> >> PLEASE NOTE: I check my email 3 times per day and will respond at >> these intervals. For anything urgent please ring me. >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 17/03/2010, at 3:17 PM, Nick Jenkin wrote: >> >>> Users don't care if your html is valid (except maybe, developers, >>> but they do not represent the general population). If you want to >>> waste hours of time making a site valid, then go for it - but I'd >>> be a pretty pissed off customer if I was paying for it, and while >>> gaining absolutely zero ROI. I'd rather you spend that time >>> *actually testing* the site on different web browsers, after-all as >>> I'm sure you are all aware, a valid site != a working site. A >>> shipped product is more valuable than a perfect one. -Nick >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Bruce Clement >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I've been using this quote in my signature file for a while. >>>> Today I think I'll headline with it. >>>> >>>> "Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a >>>> good appreciation of everything that already exists in this >>>> field." Mikhail Kalashnikov >>>> >>>> This forum is populated by experienced php developers who use php >>>> and W3C standards to generate real-world websites. They exchange >>>> useful information and help each other out. Even if you think you >>>> know better, standards are important, and just saying that a >>>> standards validator is "Stupid" only shows how much you have to >>>> learn. The reason standards are important here is because a >>>> standards compliant website has a greater chance of working with >>>> as yet unreleased browser versions than a non-compliant one has. >>>> >>>> You got one reply to your posting about your site giving what I >>>> consider to be pointing out a basic and easy to fix problem which >>>> you replied 3 times to with increasing levels of petulance. >>>> >>>> According to my records this thread is the second time you've >>>> posted on this forum. The other being a one liner "2 hrs to >>>> research find out how, and implement" comment on another thread. >>>> Giving you constructive criticism on your site as Boyd did is >>>> hardly tall poppy. In this list, you are not a tall poppy, people >>>> like Jochen, Harvey, and Aaron (amongst others) are and they >>>> don't rant and rave when people point out mistakes they make. >>>> >>>> I'm a database& back-end developer, not a website designer, so >>>> there's no point complaining about my sites, but I am currently >>>> the customer for having a few dozen of my domain names developed >>>> into small websites. The people I'm working with on this project >>>> are mature adults who accept a task and deliver to spec (or they >>>> stop getting commissions). If one of them told me they wouldn't >>>> use a dictionary because it was stupid they would get no further >>>> work. I expect basic things like spelling and grammar from >>>> content writers, W3C compliance from web developers and laces in >>>> shoes; if I don't get them I spend my money elsewhere. >>>> >>>> Last I was looking to hire a web developer I looked critically >>>> at their website on the basis that their own website is their >>>> advert and should represent their best possible work. This wasn't >>>> just a surface examination, I carefully examined their html as >>>> well. If it wasn't of the required quality I simply moved along. >>>> >>>> Bruce > > -- > Dave Lane, Egressive Ltd [email protected] m +64212298147 p +6439633733 > http://egressive.com Free/OpenSourceSoftware: because to share is human > Only use Open Standards - w3.org, Drupal powers communities - drupal.org > Effusion Group http://effusiongroup.com Software Patents kill innovation > > -- > NZ PHP Users Group: http://groups.google.com/group/nzphpug > To post, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe, send email to > [email protected] > -- Bruce Clement Home: http://www.clement.co.nz/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/Bruce_Clement Google Buzz: http://www.google.com/profiles/aotearoanz "Before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good appreciation of everything that already exists in this field." Mikhail Kalashnikov -- NZ PHP Users Group: http://groups.google.com/group/nzphpug To post, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe, send email to [email protected]
