Hi all, As a no-longer director, I can chip in here! I would keep things as simple as possible. Keep the remit of geographic scope to the OO organisation as such. This is a SIG of OSGeo Oceania. Let’s just call it the QGIS SIG, and everything is clear, imho.
These SIGs are nothing else BUT internal groups of people that want to coordinate work and engagement on a particular topic. In my eyes, there is not need to overcomplicate. Re lists – I would, again, leave it to the SIG to establish the best, but transparent, and well known, communication channel they may want to use. Of course, the OO mailing list is here for all. If using another list, they I would suggest to send digests or occasional notes and heartbeat to the main mailinglist ( and in the SIG guidelines, one is requested I believe at least every 6 months, to keep awareness). When I drafted the guidelines, I was very much lead by the example of the ACM (the major organisation for “academic” computing professionals). They have one worldwide organisation ,with local chapters. But they also have SIGs, with large internal autonomy, using the organisation’s membership management systems, financial management capabilities, insurance, etc, but they group people with interests ( you may have heard of the ACM SIGSPATIAL, organising the ACM GIS conference series). There are other SIGs there (SIGGRAPH, SIGIR, SIGCHI, etc) My 2c Martin From: Oceania <[email protected]> Date: Tuesday, 15 December 2020 at 2:54 pm To: QGIS Australia User Group <[email protected]> Cc: OSgeo - Oceania <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Oceania] [Aus-NZ-QGIS-group] Community consultation: OO Org QGIS Special Interest Group Charter Hi Andrew, awesome work! I've added a few small comments in the doc and want to bring up a couple of thoughts. Apologies if I'm raising questions that have already been answered. Geographic scope of the SIG. In the doc it's called the Oceania QGIS SIG. I know we've talked about inclusivity, and welcoming participation from the whole region, in keeping with the ethos of FOSS4G SotM Oceania and OSGeo Oceania. But I'm noticing that so far, (I think) the discussion has only drawn comments and contributions from people in Australia. I guess this is partly because the QGIS Australia community is pretty well established, with a recognised QGIS user group and a mailing list dating back nearly 10 years. But I'm wondering if we need to do more work to make sure people in other countries welcome this representation. Does the lack of participation to date reflect that the message isn't getting through, or that only Australians are interested in this SIG? Or is it just that the Australia QGIS community is leading the conversation because it's more established, and maybe the rest of the region is watching & listening with interest, and will join in later? Which list? There are a couple of references to "the open mailing list", it might be good for us to clarify which list. The existing QGIS Australia User Group mailing list<https://groups.google.com/g/australian-qgis-user-group>, or the Oceania list, or another? I think it could be helpful to make this unambiguous so that people know where to post, and which list to follow to stay up to date. This might be part of a larger question of whether this SIG is distinct from the QGIS Australia User Group, or is the same group in a new form. Thanks! John On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 13:42, Andrew Jeffrey <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi All, Thanks for the discussion on the QGIS SIG proposed charter so far. I have worked in the comments on dealing with a conflict of interest, voting (minimum number of voters), and membership tiers. Also a few formatting changes e.g. I moved the membership section higher up in the document. I suspect the membership tiers may need some further discussion, these were the tiers loosely discussed by our SIG proposers very early on (not the price but the distinction - prices are placeholders at the moment), we could also look at the pricing of the Swiss User group for guidance<https://www.qgis.ch/en/association/membership-application>. However, again this is all open for your input and feedback. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lrewntrC0N1r6mfZdo1AdPhe2qTEaN5hDA2pcL0mrvI/edit?usp=sharing<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lrewntrC0N1r6mfZdo1AdPhe2qTEaN5hDA2pcL0mrvI/edit?usp=sharing> Thanks Andrew On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:20 AM Andrew Jeffrey <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi All, Thanks for the discussion and input so far. I see there are some comments on the charter itself as well which is great, we'll try and address each of those in the document and I believe you can see the history/resoltion of these in the "comment history" in the doc itself. What I can see from the initial feedback is that the "membership" or definition of needs more detail and we need to address the potential for "conflicts of interest" when raising and voting on motions. @adam - if you don't mind I will add your example text for dealing with conflicts of interest from the previous email verbatim as a starting point and evolve it from there. Also, remember if you want to have some editing input on the charter reach out and I can add you as an editor to the document. Thanks Andrew On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 9:48 PM Emma Hain <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Thanks! Emma Hain On 30 Nov 2020, at 17:03, Phil Wyatt <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: https://www.qgis.ch/en/association/membership-application<https://www.qgis.ch/en/association/membership-application> Cheers - Phil, On the road with his iPad On 30 Nov 2020, at 5:30 pm, Emma Hain <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hey All I’m with the essence of what Martin put forward as well as Nathan. If those that can do pool together funds under the SIG then we can get the tools that Oceania needs. Is there a link to the Swiss Qgis funding model? Cheers Emma Hain On 30 Nov 2020, at 13:51, Martin Tomko <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Dear all, I just chip in, to elaborate on what I was thinking about when drafting the SIG guidelines. The overall model, for me, was that of the ACM SIGs, which work well ( some), or less well ( others), but do not impact on each other. An OO member can be member of multiple SIGs, or none. Some may organise hackatons, mapping parties, microconferences, some may not. Some may even propose ( and successfully populate and run) a stream at a FOSS4G SOTM conference (that would be awesome). They may help set the program for the conference, etc, etc. The level of activity, and the financial resources they may have available will differ, and it is not up to the OO (board) to dictate, as long as they do not encroach on the freedom of others to have their own activities, do not place undue burden on the OO itself (run by volunteers, you do not want to process hundreds of micro payments, etc, I would say), or have multiple SIGs overlapping in scope. Re fees. I would have assumed that most will be free, BUT the ability to levy a membership[ fee was left there exactly to satisfy the need for supporting a more intensive activity that is not “event” based. So, if the QGIS SIG decides to print a monthly SIG magazine and provide it as a membership service to the SIG, sure, why not, levy a membership fee. Or a website, online course, or similar. Broader membership by organisations is starting to go borderline, to what Adam noted. Is this something where the overall interests of the organisation clash with the SIG? I would suggest let’s try this, and decide, as we go. If the burden by SIGS or the internal competition is too much ( we lose FOS4G SOTM sponsors to the SIG), then this will need to be addressed. This is I believe the main concern, but we are not there. Martin From: Oceania <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Date: Monday, 30 November 2020 at 1:51 pm To: Cameron Shorter <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Cc: QGIS Australia User Group <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>, OSgeo - Oceania <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Oceania] [Aus-NZ-QGIS-group] Community consultation: OO Org QGIS Special Interest Group Charter Hey Cameron The issue of membership fees is only for the QGIS special interest group. The OSGeo Oceania membership will always be zero, or near zero cost. I'll let the QGIS folks speak for themselves, but they're talking about being able to pool money to fund specific activities, and if people are willing to pay for a subscription to regularly contribute, and they call it a membership of that QGIS SIG, that's all good, I say! Cheers, Alex On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 13:33, Cameron Shorter <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: The question of membership fees pops up every few years with arguments for and against. I summarized a bunch of threads in the OSGeo community back when I was on the OSGeo board in: http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2013/03/osgeo-board-priorities.html<http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2013/03/osgeo-board-priorities.html> .There may be some points in there which you can reuse. OSGeo as a low capital, volunteer focused organisation Should OSGeo act as a high capital or low capital organisation? I.e., should OSGeo dedicate energy to collecting sponsorship and then passing out these funds to worthy OSGeo causes. While initially it seems attractive to have OSGeo woo sponsors, because we would all love to have more money to throw at worthy OSGeo goals, the reality is that chasing money is hard work. And someone who can chase OSGeo sponsorship is likely conflicted with chasing sponsorship for their particular workplace. So in practice, to be effective in chasing sponsorship, OSGeo will probably need to hire someone specifically for the role. OSGeo would then need to raise at least enough to cover wages, and then quite a bit more if the sponsorship path is to create extra value. This high capital path is how the Eclipse foundation is set up, and how LocationTech propose to organise themselves. It is the path that OSGeo started following when founded under the umbrella of Autodesk. However, over the last seven years, OSGeo has slowly evolved toward a low capital volunteer focused organisation. Our overheads are very low, which means we waste very little of our volunteer labour and capital on the time consuming task of chasing and managing money. Consequently, any money we do receive (from conference windfalls or sponsorship) goes a long way - as it doesn't get eaten up by high overheads. As discussed and agreed by the board, this low capital path is something that is working very well for us, and is the path we should continue to follow. On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 05:21, Adam Steer <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi all Thanks Andrew for addressing all the questions people have. Responding to your reply to my questions: - OK about sponsorships and so on, I can see that the QGIS SIG could choose to align events with FOSS4G SotM Oceania editions, thereby really streamlining logistics and effort and working with the whole community - conflict of interest: really hard in a community where everyone knows each other - my science community is the same, anonymous reviews are almost impossible! I think yes, recusing people from decision making is a great step. I also think it's unrealistic to make a blanket statement that fits all cases. I think the best approach might be to handle each case as it comes, and do it transparently. To make a concrete suggestion - and feel free to disagree - the charter could contain a statement like 'Conflicts of interest, real or perceived, will be handled in accordance with our code of conduct. This means recusing relevant parties from decision making as early as possible in the process, and discussing the matter openly with our community. In some cases, we may have to proceed by funding people who make decisions about where to apply funds. This is a function of a small and close knit community, and will always be discussed openly with the community first.' There are probably heaps of loopholes in that, and impossible to close them all - so the short version is to write exactly what you wrote in reply: 'we will be ethical, and will resist being a funding pipeline to particular people or companies'. The community has to step up to make that always true. I have no thoughts to add to John's about SIG membership, except I really like that you're thinking about how to manage it in an inclusive fashion. I do have an opinion about creating sub-SIGS though - in my science career I've seen multiple disciplines discover the same tooling a few times. So my hot take is 'avoid having discipline-specific subgroups', way better to let disciplinary cross-fertilisation happen ;) Cheers, Adam On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 at 09:39, Andrew Jeffrey <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Hi, > > No problems, with everything going on post conference, elections, and the > upcoming holiday period we may need to leave this open for comment for a > little longer than normal. Happy to go with what people feel is needed here. > > John, regarding your thoughts on the membership I agree 100%, the charter at > the moment has a sentence stating the SIG should be "providing membership > avenues for people that may not be in a financial position to pay a fee" > perhaps we need more clarity around membership and what it involves in the > charter? To be clear, my thoughts are that keeping in the spirit of OO the > SIG should be available to everyone and no one should be excluded from > participating, on reflection the term "membership" might come across as > prohibitive. I'm sure we'll come up with something acceptable through > conversation here. > > For context though it may be helpful to explain the intent behind the idea of > a "membership". The issues it aims to address are below: > > There is some difficulty associated with organisations giving a "donation", > but purchasing something like a "membership" to a professional user group > seems to be acceptable and is easier justified in some procurement processes. > For individuals donating to QGIS helps the project but has little influence > on their QGIS experience, also individuals on the QGIS list have indicated > trouble participating in crowdfunding campaigns due to high minimum pledges. > > A QGIS SIG would allow us to receive money from interested parties wanting to > support QGIS in our region, pool the funds and then spend as the SIG sees > fit. The best part is the money will be spent on the items scoped in our > charter which is again relevant to users in our region. For lack of a better > term think of it as a "co-op" for the donations alot of us already make on an > ad-hoc basis. Ideally we would be looking to get a majority of the membership > from organisations that we know use QGIS to support a bulk of this activity, > and then people willing to make a personal contribution would then add to > that. Then if people can't make a personal contribution that is also fine > because they can assist in other ways. > > That was the idea in justifying a membership fee. We will need to offer > something in return, for individuals that will be the professional network > and for organisations that will be recognition at this early stage but as we > progress this may evolve. > > Thanks > Andrew > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:57 PM John Bryant > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Andrew, thanks a lot for continuing to push this forward. It has been a >> couple of months since I last looked at this, and I haven't really had a >> detailed look at the SIG concept yet. >> >> I'm 'out of the office' for the next few days, but would be happy to join in >> this discussion when I get back, and have a proper chance to refresh my >> memory and get up to speed on SIGs. >> >> One brief thought, it feels like it would be good to consider a free (or >> very inexpensive) tier of membership. I suspect many of us can't justify (or >> can't afford) to spend much, but could contribute in other ways. >> >> Cheers >> John >> >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020, 9:46 am Andrew Jeffrey, >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Adam, >>> >>> Thanks for the feedback. >>> >>> I agree the SIG shouldn't bring about any duplication of the processes that >>> the OO currently does. A SIG as defined in the guidelines should be >>> "enabling OSGeo Oceania members to interact, share knowledge, organise >>> events, and collaborate on a selected, targeted topic within the scope of >>> OSGeo Oceania". So a SIG should be complementary to the OO function and >>> allow the interested community members to drive engagement in that area >>> without the OO board having to do it all. Like you say though, open >>> communication between the SIG and the OO board is key in making sure there >>> is no overlap being introduced. Also to be clear the SIG isn’t seeking >>> “sponsorship” as such but we do want to be able to collect a membership fee >>> for people/orgs wanting to be involved, allowing them to fund items that >>> maybe other OO members don’t see as important. I don’t see this taking away >>> from conference sponsorship and this idea will ultimately sink or swim >>> depending on whether the SIG members have an appetite to fund the items in >>> our scope. >>> >>> As for the conflict of interest, to be honest I don't know the answer in >>> regards to how that should be dealt with. I think we need to add something >>> in the charter, would removing those people from the proposal and voting >>> process be enough? How does OO deal with this? I don’t want to rule local >>> devs out of working on this because they belong to the group, but we also >>> don’t want to become the entry point to company XYZ. >>> >>> Thanks for the feedback. >>> >>> Andrew >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 7:35 AM Adam Steer >>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hey Andrew and all the QGIS SIG proposers >>>> >>>> Thanks, I think this is a perfect use of OSGeo Oceania as a backing >>>> organisation :) >>>> >>>> My only reservation with any SIG proposal is that effort isn't >>>> duplicated about events and marketing, and also that a funding from a >>>> small pool of interested parties (relative to other parts of the >>>> world) is able to be effectively spread among the whole community. For >>>> an example it would be a bit awry to see a SIG gather a heap of >>>> funding at the expense of conference sponsorships. I guess in that >>>> case the SIG could also sponsor conferences? This goes the other way >>>> too - the existence of a well connected SIG makes it easier for OO to >>>> fund a QGIS feature (for example) if it decides to do so. >>>> >>>> I think clear, constant and open communication between OO and the SIG >>>> will make those concerns go away. >>>> >>>> In writing this I did work my thoughts through to a serious question: >>>> How will the SIG deal with conflicts of interest? A stated aim of the >>>> SIG is to fund development, what will the SIG do if all the key QGIS >>>> developers in the region are also in the group of people making >>>> decisions about buying developer time? >>>> >>>> My only comment on the charter itself is that if you want, you can >>>> link to the existing Berlin Code of Conduct: >>>> https://berlincodeofconduct.org/<https://berlincodeofconduct.org/> - with >>>> which the upcoming OO CoC >>>> should be 100% compatible. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 at 04:37, Andrew Jeffrey >>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Hi All, >>>> > >>>> > The OSGeo Oceania board has approved an initiative for members to form >>>> > Special Interest Groups (SIGs) within the OO community. >>>> > >>>> > A SIG is a way for community members to collaborate around common >>>> > interests which in this case is QGIS. >>>> > >>>> > In establishing a SIG, the OO board requires that the group proposing >>>> > the SIG put forward a charter which outlines the Aim and Scope under >>>> > which the SIG will operate. >>>> > >>>> > Myself, Emma Hain, John Bryant, Nathan Woodrow and Nyall Dawson would >>>> > like to start a QGIS SIG which can be used to benefit QGIS users in our >>>> > community. To get things started we have come up with a charter that we >>>> > would like to make available for community consultation. As this charter >>>> > currently reflects our input we would like to put this out for >>>> > discussion to see if what we are proposing is on the right path for the >>>> > community. At the moment everyone with the link below has "comment" >>>> > permissions, but "edit" permissions can be granted on request if you >>>> > would like to get more involved and you're welcome to do so. >>>> > >>>> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lrewntrC0N1r6mfZdo1AdPhe2qTEaN5hDA2pcL0mrvI/edit?usp=sharing<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lrewntrC0N1r6mfZdo1AdPhe2qTEaN5hDA2pcL0mrvI/edit?usp=sharing> >>>> > >>>> > I also just want to be upfront that this SIG is proposing that there be >>>> > a membership fee associated with the group. The funds raised by the >>>> > membership will be stored with the OO org and then used by the SIG on >>>> > items as scoped out in the charter. The idea with the membership is not >>>> > to "make money" but to pool our small contributions to give us better >>>> > "buying power" for lack of a better term. As a SIG within the OO org we >>>> > can participate in crowdfunding campaigns, engage a dev to develop a >>>> > feature important to us but might not be recognised as important to the >>>> > larger QGIS project, or engage a trainer to provide professional >>>> > development via Zoom, the types of things that are hard to do as >>>> > individuals or as a user group with no funds etc. The membership >>>> > arrangement also allows us to offer membership to organisations which >>>> > will become a way for them to support QGIS and their local QGIS >>>> > community. Ideally, this is where a majority of the funds would come >>>> > from as we don't want an individual to be excluded due to a "fee", which >>>> > is also covered in the charter. I'm available as I'm sure the other >>>> > proposers are to discuss the intention of this further and in the open >>>> > on this list. >>>> > >>>> > Any questions feel free to ask or if you prefer to comment on the >>>> > charter that is fine too. >>>> > >>>> > I look forward to discussing this with you. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks >>>> > Andrew >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> > Groups "QGIS Australia User Group" group. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> > an email to >>>> > [email protected]<mailto:australian-qgis-user-group%[email protected]>. >>>> > To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CADTxF6bV6OicKcLveZsexfQ_gLULoFTpATV3iyjxWBswRyM_iA%40mail.gmail.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CADTxF6bV6OicKcLveZsexfQ_gLULoFTpATV3iyjxWBswRyM_iA%40mail.gmail.com>. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "QGIS Australia User Group" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to >>>> [email protected]<mailto:australian-qgis-user-group%[email protected]>. >>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CAFORoyh3xiAcvRrAWbNK%3DrH%2B0-DUhq1GZnVp08t8HX90R9tdKA%40mail.gmail.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CAFORoyh3xiAcvRrAWbNK%3DrH%2B0-DUhq1GZnVp08t8HX90R9tdKA%40mail.gmail.com>. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "QGIS Australia User Group" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to >>> [email protected]<mailto:australian-qgis-user-group%[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CADTxF6ZUvSgCSuzn-ikrGNAKBmaQ5Mc84uCTbOeLSLqRtjfzew%40mail.gmail.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CADTxF6ZUvSgCSuzn-ikrGNAKBmaQ5Mc84uCTbOeLSLqRtjfzew%40mail.gmail.com>. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "QGIS Australia User Group" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to >> [email protected]<mailto:australian-qgis-user-group%[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CAHY5hn8OAzyneschpsBa2XwifpKo47mFrWfwGafoDAOJjFir1Q%40mail.gmail.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CAHY5hn8OAzyneschpsBa2XwifpKo47mFrWfwGafoDAOJjFir1Q%40mail.gmail.com>. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "QGIS Australia User Group" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > [email protected]<mailto:australian-qgis-user-group%[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CADTxF6b8jpUOK8EeMyUnd3rYG9N_EAKtU%3D%2Bwao1ZZUHBHUw9aQ%40mail.gmail.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/australian-qgis-user-group/CADTxF6b8jpUOK8EeMyUnd3rYG9N_EAKtU%3D%2Bwao1ZZUHBHUw9aQ%40mail.gmail.com>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "QGIS Australia User Group" group. 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