Hello,
Doug Meerschaert wrote:
> Hmm... let's move this to the ogf-d20-l, eh? I'm cc-ing this over there...
I'm not sure that would be appropriate. With the changes I'm thinking of, putting the
D20 logo
on it would be counter productive at best for the D20STL.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the purpose for the list, I thing the D20SRD under the OGL
is best
for this list.
> I don't know; what you do is write up all-new descriptions for your armor
> types, like so...
>
> Leather: AC 10, absorbs 1 point of damage
> Chain: AC 7, absorbs 3 points of damag
> Plate Mail: AC 5, absorbs 8 points of damage
>
> The *mechanics* behind the whole bit stay the same; you just change the
> values.
That basically amounts to what I have in mind. Although I think there is going to be a
little
more to it than just that.
> "The d20 system: percisely, the D20SRD indipendant of the specific informaiton
> on races, classes, items, and spells."
Not thinking about changing any of that. haven't even seen it after all.
> Not meaningless or useless--MOST "classless" games I've seen have "templates"
> for different "archtypes."
The only templates I'm going to put in are suggested skill packages for the type of
character
you want to play. Classes can be totally dropped without too much of problem.
I'm considering a "Personality Type" system that will allow certain skills to be bought
cheaper. i suppose that you could call that a class if you want. Although there will
only be
two types, one that finds physical skills easier to learn, and one that finds mental
skills
easier to learn. (And thus easier to purchase.)
> There's an artifical line between "classless" and
> "custom-class"... all the tweak has to do is make a system to do either, and
> the problem is solved. (Anyone interested in doing so, give me a ring...)
Perhaps. I'm going for a truly "classless" system though. As in drop them and don't
replace
them with anything else. Although i may do something along the lines of Alternity type
classes. That might be interesting.
> You were railing against a class system, and pointed out a single class
> ability as a fault.
Just as an example. If you would like, i could give you an entire breakdown, but it
might take
a while for me to write up. :-)
> Semantically speaking, I wouldn't call it a "flaw" unless it doesn't make
> logical sense with respect to the premises of the game, or an error in
> typesetting. A "design choice" might be better.
I'll agree to that one.
> Is there any reason that a mage will be smarter than a fighter, or a fighter
> stronger? Only that smarter people make better mages, and stronger folks make
> better fighters.
Have you ever played a D&D fighter with a strength of 9? One of my favorite characters
is such
a person.
I would say that on the average you are correct, under the assumptions that D&D makes.
That
mages are all book worms. I hold up Belgarion as a good example of a non standard mage.
Belgarath even.
I just don't like the assumptions. If I want to play a spell singer, I don't want the
assumption to be that I'm weaker because I'm a book worm. Even though the character
has never
even seen a book, much less read it.
> Ah, you were talking about HP. So, a person who studies for a living and
> performs ceremonies is going to be able to take more abuse than someone who
> trains and physically fights for a living?
Probably not. But you are assuming that my mage studies all the time. What if magic is
more a
talent than a learning ability? What if the mage still has to pull his weight around
his
village with manual labor just like the fighters? What if the mage grew up in a Renshi
type
society were they start learning to swing a sword about the same time they can hold
onto
things.
> > The less assumptions that the designers make about how characters should be,
> the more choices
> > one is ultimately going to have. And that should be the goal of any game.
>
> I disagree; the goal of any game desinger should be *To make a Fun Game!*.
> All else is irreleveant.
And i would contend that the more choices granted to a player, the more fun the game
will be.
> > > No need to scrap d20.
> >
> > Do you honestly think I would be here if I wasn't interested in D20?
> Since this is the ogf-l and not ogf-d20-l, YES, you could be. *grin*
Ah, but the ogf-d20-l is about the D20STL, I have no interest in that. :-)
> Hmm... classes, level advancement, HP, skills, AND feats? I think you just
> crossed the line of "d20ness." (I know that, as a consumer, *I* would be
> rightly peeved to see a game professing to be d20 that had NONE of the
> above.)
Not trying to be D20 logo'd. Not planing on selling it. Some things will only have
small
changes, like HP, Advancement and skills (added to mostly) Classes and D&D levels will
be
thrown out and not replaced. Won't be any need for them. Feats i haven't made up my
mind yet,
won't until I see them.
It will, probably, still use the core game mechanic. so it will still be D20, just a
different
flavor. Probably call it "D20 Skill Based" or some such thing.
> But if you ONLY change the incoming damage, and still have the same effects
> and images being thrown in, you haven't really done a whole lot... why
> bother?
Its a matter of what part you are changing. Lets assume that i have changed the HP and
incoming damage to more human levels.
The normal D&D character says "I need to get to that mountain on the other side of the
valley.
Walks right to it.
The "new and improved" :-) character notices that if he does that he would have to wade
through the army. The normal D&D character didn't care of even really notice because
he has
the HP to walk through an army with out noticing it.
It isn't a matter of skewing the balance. It is a matter of bringing the overall power
level
down.
> Much better is the change of only dropping the HP... a 5d6 fireball takes on a
> whole new threat-level when you only have 10 HP.
I want my players to be thinking about the game, not constantly wondering where to put
the
rolls for their newest character. :-)
> Well, we could argue that the grittier it gets, the more heroic the PCs are.
Only if you disagree with the statement. :-)
> How, exactly, will converting your existing world to this "new" system be any
> harder than converting it to D&D?
My setting assumes a certain power level. Everything from politics to the ecology. D&D
has a
much higher personal power level. The "new" system will retain the power level I am
after.
> If you're looking for solutions on the
> individual-DM level, you might want to subscribe to dnd-l on the
> oracle.wizards.com server.
No thanks. I actually don't like D&D. I've been playing fantasy with the Alternity
rules for
the past couple of years. I find that it handles my type of fantasy better than D&D
did. Of
course even if i did want to go back, talking my players into it would be almost
impossible.
They all like the freedom a skill based system gives, too much to go back.
> > Ok, I'm open to suggestions.
> >
> > I dislike every aspect of classes. What should i do about it?
>
> Work with me & anyone else's who's interested in making a custom-class /
> classless system. You probably don't like the idea of classes because they
> force you to pick a pre-defined mold... so in response to that, let's figure
> out how to let each player make their own mold that won't unbalance the
> others!
The way that I am doing it is to just throw them out all together. Once you get a
decent skill
list, they are no longer really even necessary. Haven't decided if i want a tiered
skill
level like Alternity or just a laundry list like Cyberpunk yet. But since I haven't
even seen
the SDR yet, I think I'm safe. :-)
HP's will be figured from the Con score. Probably equal to the stat. Everyone will
have the
same access to skills. Spells will become skills as will psionic abilities, chi powers,
etc.Characters will be guided by cultures instead of archetypes. That will allow the
GM to
keep better control and setting consistency at any given time.
> > I dislike increasing HP's but would like to keep a heroic feel to the game.
> What should I do
> > about it?
>
> If you're still in Fanatasy? Replace HP with a "wound" or "damage resistance"
> skill, and steal the ol' StarWars d6 system.
I will be basing HP's off of CON. Weapons will probably keep the same damages,
although I've
come across some ideas that might be intriguing as far as that goes.
I have no problem with just one set of HP's, but the flexibility of multiple tiers of
HP's as
well as differing quality of attacks has me intrigued, so i may go ahead and adapt
something
similar.
> > I dislike the way that D&D does levels and everything that goes with the
> increasing level.
> > What should i do about it?
>
> Get into some more specifics.
More specifically i don't like how level interacts with classes. At level 5 the
warrior gets
the ultra spike attack that does more damage than the ability that he got at level 1.
> Do you dislike PCs increasing in skill? Then have a pre-set level that
> doesn't advance.
Increasing in level is fine.
>Do you dislike the way XP is awarded for combat? Then have a different way of
>awarding XP.
Awarding points for combat is fine. But you should only award those skills that were
used, not
all of them that are bundled with your class. Whether they have anything to do with
combat or
not.
> Do you dislike having all the skills advance as one? Divorce them from the
> level, and instead give more skill points towards increasing the individual
> skills.
The way i have it now is that all skills have there own levels. Each skill is awarded
points
as you use it. Once you get so many points that skill increases in level.
I have yet to decide if i want the benefit of increasing skill to be only the fact
that you
get a better role from it, or if increased levels also bring about additional benefits
from
the skill.
> Like I said, I'd be willing to go into greater detail, and even sign on to
> help on a pseudo-professional effort.
If you would like to help, that would be cool. Most of it is done, just waiting for the
document to see specific mechanic details. It may not be what you are wanting to work
on
though as I don't care about the cows. And i definitely want to change the feel and the
overall power level of the game.
However, It will also be all made into modular rules so that it will fit in the Modular
document that is going to be started up by Sedge.
Have Fun,
Darren
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