Infinite Possibilities <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well since that is what AC is, my problem is with AC. I don't have a problem
with the term if
> that is what you are saying. So if you want to change the way it works and
still call it AC,
> that is fine with me.
Hmm... let's move this to the ogf-d20-l, eh? I'm cc-ing this over there...
And I want to differentiate between the "AC Mechanic" (Which is really just
the DC to score a hit) and "armor." See below.
> Which is fine. But you still have to redo all the AC bonuses. In your little
"fix" above they
> would start being penalties. After all it is going to be easier to hit
someone in plate mail
> than in leather?
I don't know; what you do is write up all-new descriptions for your armor
types, like so...
Leather: AC 10, absorbs 1 point of damage
Chain: AC 7, absorbs 3 points of damag
Plate Mail: AC 5, absorbs 8 points of damage
The *mechanics* behind the whole bit stay the same; you just change the
values.
> > So? Change the class. Once again you state a problem with the specifics,
but
> > not the system itself.
>
> Define what you mean by the system itself.
"The d20 system: percisely, the D20SRD indipendant of the specific informaiton
on races, classes, items, and spells."
> Also, the specific about the class was just an
> example. There is pretty much nothing about the class that I like. Most of
it mechanical.
> Besides if you have a skill based/leveless system, like I prefer. Then
classes become
> meaningless and useless.
Not meaningless or useless--MOST "classless" games I've seen have "templates"
for different "archtypes." There's an artifical line between "classless" and
"custom-class"... all the tweak has to do is make a system to do either, and
the problem is solved. (Anyone interested in doing so, give me a ring...)
> > (You might as well call the fire&forget spell system a
> > fundamental flaw, even though all you want to do is have a point-based
system
> > with the same spells.)
>
> If you don't like a mechanic and change it to something else, then it is a
flaw for you. Don't
> know about fundamental, but a flaw none the less.
You were railing against a class system, and pointed out a single class
ability as a fault.
Semantically speaking, I wouldn't call it a "flaw" unless it doesn't make
logical sense with respect to the premises of the game, or an error in
typesetting. A "design choice" might be better.
> > or how many HP I
> > have.
>
> The difference is that some games don't try to abstract it out of any real
meaning. For
> example. D&D assumes that a mage is going to be weaker than a fighter
physically. That is an
> assumption that I don't agree with and don't feel i should be bound to.
Well, I wouldn't say that's wholly without regard to the rules... D&D doesn't
have ANY ability score requirements, and when it did they were "minimums" for
the classes.
Is there any reason that a mage will be smarter than a fighter, or a fighter
stronger? Only that smarter people make better mages, and stronger folks make
better fighters.
> Some games take care
> of that by basing HP's on the stats (which are there to give that type of
info about a person)
> instead of an assumption about how a wizard or fighter should be compared to
the other.
Ah, you were talking about HP. So, a person who studies for a living and
performs ceremonies is going to be able to take more abuse than someone who
trains and physically fights for a living? Someone who is dedicated to
fighting in a battle isn't going to be able to last longer than someone who
isn't?
> The less assumptions that the designers make about how characters should be,
the more choices
> one is ultimately going to have. And that should be the goal of any game.
I disagree; the goal of any game desinger should be *To make a Fun Game!*.
All else is irreleveant.
> > No need to scrap d20.
>
> Do you honestly think I would be here if I wasn't interested in D20?
Since this is the ogf-l and not ogf-d20-l, YES, you could be. *grin*
I'll scrap classes,
> because i don't like how D&D handles them. If you want to name my new way of
doing characters
> as classes, be my guest.
? Classes are archtypes, set in the rules. See above for my thoughts on
classless / custom-class d20. (Great idea, too!)
> I will scrap levels because i don't like how D&D handles them. The same
applies to HP's and
> possibly skills and feats, although i have to see them first. I will
probably rename them just
> to keep the confusion down. But i don't think I've mentioned anything one
way or the other
> about the core rolling mechanic.
Hmm... classes, level advancement, HP, skills, AND feats? I think you just
crossed the line of "d20ness." (I know that, as a consumer, *I* would be
rightly peeved to see a game professing to be d20 that had NONE of the
above.)
> Heh, :-) // With the most dramatic eye rolling, hand gestures, sighing and
stomping around
> possible, "Yes, You do."
Hah. As a little kender, with a stern look to his face, "No you don't! It's
completely unneccessary!!!! You're doing a lot of work for nothing!!!"
> If you reduce the players HP's and not the incoming damage, then you have
already changed the
> threat level. By changing the incoming damage you are fixing the threat
level you broke by
> changing the HP's in the first place.
But if you ONLY change the incoming damage, and still have the same effects
and images being thrown in, you haven't really done a whole lot... why
bother?
Much better is the change of only dropping the HP... a 5d6 fireball takes on a
whole new threat-level when you only have 10 HP. (What you might want to do
is open-up a lot of feats like "dodge" to the PCs... but with a free-archtype
game, you'll have already taken care of that...)
> Just because you want gritty doesn't mean you want to throw out heroic as
well.
Well, we could argue that the grittier it gets, the more heroic the PCs are.
> Since i haven't seen it and only know that it exists, that isn't an option
at the moment.
> Course if they thought the HP mechanic was broke enough to fix it for Strar
Wars, then just
> goes to show you that people are weird.
Not "broke", just not entirely appropriate. From what's public, the SW wound
system'll be an add-on to the existing D&D rules, and is probably there
chiefly because of the wound levels in the ol' d6 game.
> You have no problems accepting their changes to D20 right out of the hat. If
I suggest any you
> are all over the place with me.
No, not at all. I'm only going to the mat with your 'cause I think you're
doing unnecessary work... if you want to go ahead and change the rules and
spend six months re-balancing them to get almost the same "balance" as D&D go
right ahead. I'm just trying to save you some needless changes.
(We COULD take this to private e-mail, Damian.)
********************
> What is your fix then?
To keep the players on their toes? I think that's best done by the individual
DM/GM. From a rules-perspective, I'd suggest making the adventures actually
have both Threat and Meaning... The inclusion of rules for family & home,
Scars, and the like, along with some well-thought commentary on proper pacing,
would do more towards your goal than simply dropping HP.
Now then, if you're going for an entirely different feel of the game, tinker
with the rules all you want. If you just want more attention into the
game--well, that's a DM-level job, not a Design-level job.
> > then you
> > should just change the frequency of items that will kill the PCs so
fast...
>
> Hmm... OK, I can take the little bit of time it will take to fix a broken
mechanic, or I can
> take the enormous amount of time that it will take to completely redesign my
world to work
> around a (for my purposes) broken game mechanic.
? (skipping "broken mechanic" rant)
How, exactly, will converting your existing world to this "new" system be any
harder than converting it to D&D? If you're looking for solutions on the
individual-DM level, you might want to subscribe to dnd-l on the
oracle.wizards.com server.
If you ARE talking about a desinger / publisher level change, then I would
hazzard a guess that a game with fiery dragon-breath that did little more
damage than a longsword wouldn't do much to instill in me any great measure of
threat!
> Ok, I'm open to suggestions.
>
> I dislike every aspect of classes. What should i do about it?
Work with me & anyone else's who's interested in making a custom-class /
classless system. You probably don't like the idea of classes because they
force you to pick a pre-defined mold... so in response to that, let's figure
out how to let each player make their own mold that won't unbalance the
others!
> I dislike increasing HP's but would like to keep a heroic feel to the game.
What should I do
> about it?
If you're still in Fanatasy? Replace HP with a "wound" or "damage resistance"
skill, and steal the ol' StarWars d6 system. Each attack does a damage roll,
and the PC rolls a "damage resistance" roll in turn. If the DR is greater
than the DMG, no effect; if the DMG is greater than the DR, each multiple
inflicts one more "level" of wound.
(SW used "STUN," "Wound", and "dead", IIRC.)
> I dislike the way that D&D does levels and everything that goes with the
increasing level.
> What should i do about it?
Get into some more specifics.
Do you dislike PCs increasing in skill? Then have a pre-set level that
doesn't advance.
Do you dislike the way XP is awarded for combat? Then have a different way of
awarding XP.
Do you dislike having all the skills advance as one? Divorce them from the
level, and instead give more skill points towards increasing the individual
skills.
Like I said, I'd be willing to go into greater detail, and even sign on to
help on a pseudo-professional effort.
DM
Looking for a game? I DM in Upstate NY, twice a month at Artemis Games in New
Hartford, NY (a suburb of Utica)
Even better, I've got irregular games where I live, in Charlton (near Albany).
Drop me a line and we'll game!
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AIM: Planesdragon ICQ: 26106342
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