>I know you have tried to be polite by not pointing out specific examples; >but you have also admitted to knowing only a tiny fraction of products on >the market. I fear that weakens your argument: without specific examples, >I'm afraid I cannot understand your insistence that there is little >"USEFUL" >OGC. I see LOTS of useful OGC out there, and others do, too. So I think >you'll need to cite specific examples of non-useful if we're to understand >your point. Don't talk about absurd hypotheticals like prepositions and >pronouns; talk about actual things you think were done incorrectly.
Can anyone claim to really know more than a fraction of the hundreds of products now on the market? Suffice to say I own or have borrowed and read 30-40 products in depth. I went back to my collection and took a look at what I found was good and bad. Here is what I mean by "crippled" (again) - "I point out borrowed OGC to you and tell you it is from Book X. You cannot easily find the OGC in Book X." The most common reason for this is that you have stripped the Name of the Thing from the material that has been released as OGC. And without further ado, the Good and Bad (I have noted the relative amount of OGC in a book, but this does not factor into Good or Bad): Book of Eldritch Might (Malhavoc Press) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? No Amount of OGC? So little that complaint could be and has been made. Relics & Rituals (SSS) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? No, but only because of the included license to use spell names. Amount of OGC? Lots. Creature Collection I & II (SSS) - Bad Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? Yes (names removed from OGC) Amount of OGC? Lots. Crucible of Freya (SSS) - Bad Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? Yes (follows same convention as CCI and removes names from OGC) Amount of OGC? Not tons, but you don't expect a lot from a module. Nature's Fury (SSS) - Bad Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? Yes (follows same convention as CCI and removes names from OGC) Amount of OGC? Not tons, but you don't expect a lot from a module. The Encyclopedia of Demons and Devils (FFG) - Bad Is it clear what is OGC? Mostly Yes (says that "historical names" can be used but does not specifically delineate which are historical - otherwise good) Is the OGC "crippled"? Yes (follows same convention as CCI and removes names from OGC) Amount of OGC? Lots. Evil (AEG) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? No. Amount of OGC? Lots. Practically the whole book. Dungeons (AEG) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? No. Amount of OGC? Quite a bit. Mythic Races (FFG) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? Not really. Amount of OGC? Lots. Traps & Treachery - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? Usually not. Amount of OGC? Lots. Legions of Hell (Green Ronin) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? No. Amount of OGC? Lots. Over 90% of the book. Jade Dragons and Hungry Ghosts (Green Ronin) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? No. Amount of OGC? Lots. Over 90% of the book. Mystic Warriors (Mystic Eye Games) - Bad Is it clear what is OGC? Not at all (no definitive designation made). Is the OGC "crippled"? Assuming I have their OGC correct, Yes. Amount of OGC? Some. Nightmares & Dreams (Mystic Eye Games) - Bad Is it clear what is OGC? Not at all (no definitive designation made). Is the OGC "crippled"? Assuming I have their OGC correct, Yes. Amount of OGC? Some. Death in Freeport (Green Ronin) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? No. Amount of OGC? Whole thing. Necromancy (Mongoose) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Mostly Is the OGC "crippled"? No. Amount of OGC? Very Little Demonology (Mongoose) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Mostly Is the OGC "crippled"? No. Amount of OGC? Very Little Three Days to Kill (Atlas) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yup. Is the OGC "crippled"? No. Amount of OGC? Lots. Dragon Annual 6 (WotC) - Good Is it clear what is OGC? Yes Is the OGC "crippled"? Not really. Amount of OGC? Very Little **Total Results** GOOD: 13 BAD: 7 Is it clear what is OGC? 14 yes, 6 mostly clear to no Is the OGC "crippled"? 7 yes/mostly, 13 not really/no Amount of OGC? 11 Lots, 3 Some, 6 not much In trying to keep the sample "fair" I have listed 20 products, which are representative of 8 publishers (no publisher has more than SSS's 5 products so that I don't skew the results to be representative of one company), though obviously the sample will be skewed towards what I buy (in case you hadn't noticed, I bought a lot of SSS's stuff despite my complaints). If you have a larger sampling, I would love to see it. I will be going by my local hobby shop to peruse as many as I can this weekend so I can have a good overall feel. Given the results of the above, I will soften my stance a little (of necessity ;-) ) - it appears that more publishers are putting out significant quantities of OGC than I thought. It also appears that fewer of them are "crippling" it to the degree I thought they were. And more often than not, publishers are making it clear what is OGC and what is not. It DOES worry me, though, that the ratio is only about 2 to 1 in terms of "not confusing/confusing OGC," 2 to 1 in terms of "not crippled/crippled", and 2 to 1 in terms of "significant amounts of OGC to small amounts of OGC." I hope it will continue to climb in all of these categories. But I guess what worries me the most is that the ratio of books that score "not confusing, not crippled, significant amounts of OGC" to those that are weak in one of these three categories is only 9 to 11 (in other words, less than 50% are clear on what is OGC, not "crippled", and contain significant amounts of OGC). I will soften my rant for now. I was making my judgements based mostly on CCI, CCII, Encyclopedia of Demons and Devils, Legions of Hell, and Nightmares and Dreams (the 5 monster books which represent 4 different publishers) because monster books are the most "populous" supplements. It appears that they are a poor representative of the community as a whole. But I still want to see stuff that is clear about OGC, lets me use it in a "non-crippled" manner, and has lots of it! :-) (See, even I can change my mind when I'm wrong). ;-) --The Sigil P.S. - Please read through all 6 of my posts before replying. Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________________ Ogf-l mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
