First, sorry, I didn't realize my reply when just to Ben, so this is kind of catch-up for anyone else reading.
FRBR was developed out of the mentality of library cataloging, which means that there was an assumption, IMO, of human decision-making for all of the links and relationships. Most of the thinking behind FRBR seems quite solid, but note that it was developed as a conceptual model -- not a data model --, and AFAIK it has never been tested in a data creation/modification environment. Instead, examples of FRBR that we have are like OL -- it has data that has been derived algorithmically from bibliographic data that was not created with FRBR in mind. Although I'm not happy with the edit display on OL (it wasn't clear to me where the fields for title and edition title were coming from) I think it does point out a dilemma, or at least some real system complications -- because at the point where I was editing that record I need to have been given the option to create a new work record or to move that record to a new work record -- and I think that managing all of the splitting and re-creating of works is going to be 1) fairly complex code and 2) hard to show as validation feedback for the user. In any case, I'm not sure it makes sense to me to allow editing of the Work title on the edit screen of the edition title. I'd like to explore other options. kc On 7/25/12 2:45 AM, Ben Companjen wrote: > (Did you mean to answer to me only? If not, could you post this reply > to the list too?) > > Works are stored as records and references to those works are stored > in the Edition records. This allows storing information about the > Work, such as identifiers, classifications, excerpts etc. that would > have had to be duplicated for all / some Editions, were there no Work > records. > NB: The datamodel even supports Editions to have multiple Work references... > > I've come to understand and like the Open Library model quite well. > Better than the LibraryThing model, which doesn't make the distinction > as clear as OL does, IIRC. And isn't this (as opposed to seeing Works > as (dynamic) abstractions of Editions) more like the FRBR way? > > I just had the following idea for changes to the interface to allow > moving Editions: when entering Edit mode from an Edition record, show > a button "This belongs to another Work" next to the Work title and > author fields, and when clicked, show a text field in which the URL or > just the OL ID of another Work can be entered, with "leave empty to > create a new Work". Have the user confirm it twice (like with author > merges). I guess this should only be allowed to logged in users. > > Ben > > On 25 July 2012 02:48, Karen Coyle <[email protected]> wrote: >> Hmmm. Well, this seems wrong, but I can't say exactly what would be "right." >> Each edition needs information about the Work that it contains. I've always >> considered the work to be a "cluster" or grouping of editions, rather than a >> thing in itself, but that's not the common view. In any case, it needs to be >> possible to indicate in the edition record the title of the work, but not to >> necessarily edit the work record's title at the same time. Or, one needs to >> be able to create a new work and move the edition. I guess that's where we >> started here. In fact, I see this as a dilemma for future library cataloging >> systems that want to use this Work/Edition model. I need to think about it >> some more. >> >> In most cases, the title of the work = title of the edition. The titles >> differ for translated works and works that have been re-published over time >> with slightly different names (and these tend to be the classics... >> Shakespeare, Chaucer, etc., ones that were created before modern publishing >> took over). >> >> Thanks, >> kc >> >> >> On 7/24/12 3:59 PM, Ben Companjen wrote: >>> >>> That is indeed the behaviour I expected from your 'experiment >>> description'. :) >>> >>> The edit form is sort of hybrid: you can edit the Work and Edition at >>> the same time, if you enter the edit form either from an edition page, >>> or from a work page with only one edition. In the latter case, the >>> edit form jumps to the edition information tab automatically after >>> loading. >>> >>> The top two fields belong to the Work (and are empty when a new work >>> is created for a previously work-less edition), just like the first >>> three tabs "What's it about?", "Add excerpts" and "Links". So >>> everything you change in those fields is saved to the Work record. And >>> even when you don't touch any Work field and only edit Edition >>> information, a new revision of the Work is saved. (That is what I >>> meant earlier.) >>> I don't think there is anything in place that creates a new work when >>> the work information is too different from the current edition >>> information - the edit form's behaviour is complicated enough without >>> such hidden behaviour. >>> >>> Ben >>> >>> On 25 July 2012 00:34, Karen Coyle <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Wow, that was unexpected. I changed the edition that I had listed to >>>> have the correct Work title, it changed the Work title for all of them. >>>> Ben, that's probably what you meant about it saving the unchanged Work >>>> as well? I'll wait and see if it gets sorted out, but you can look at >>>> the versions here: >>>> >>>> http://openlibrary.org/works/OL72908W/Miko._It_was_me_Mom!?m=history >>>> >>>> I looked up the Miko books in WorldCat and they all start with "Miko." >>>> then are followed by the edition name. >>>> >>>> http://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=worldcat_org_all&q=miko >>>> >>>> That will be because that's how the titles are on the books themselves. >>>> >>>> kc >>>> >>>> On 7/24/12 3:19 PM, Karen Coyle wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ben, I'm sure they can't be "moved" in a kind of mechanical sense, but >>>>> have you tried changing the underlying edition data? The question then >>>>> is whether they get re-evaluated for Work "belonging" based on the new >>>>> data. If there is no re-evaluation process based on updates, then my >>>>> suggestion won't work. >>>>> >>>>> I do recall that we've talked about this or something very like this in >>>>> the past, but I don't remember the outcome. >>>>> >>>>> kc >>>>> >>>>> p.s. I'll try a few and see if anything happens. >>>>> >>>>> On 7/24/12 12:26 PM, Ben Companjen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> As far as I know, editions that have a work cannot be moved to another >>>>>> work using the edit form. If my understanding is correct, you would >>>>>> need a script and API access to correct it. >>>>>> As a side note: I noticed that (sometimes?) when you update >>>>>> information about the edition (on the 'edition' tab), the unchanged >>>>>> work is saved too. >>>>>> Only editions without a work will be assigned a new work when edited. >>>>>> >>>>>> And I don't think editions (or works) can be merged by normal users >>>>>> yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Ben >>>>>> >>>>>> On 24 July 2012 18:57, Sarah Breau <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I recall there was some discussion here a few months ago about >>>>>>> managing >>>>>>> editions. I ask because I was working on a book that is in a series, >>>>>>> and for >>>>>>> some reason all the books in the series are grouped together as one >>>>>>> work. I >>>>>>> need to split them into separate works, but can't figure out how to do >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>> Also, can we merge duplicate editions yet? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sarah >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Ol-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-discuss >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Ol-discuss mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-discuss >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Karen Coyle >>>> [email protected] http://kcoyle.net >>>> ph: 1-510-540-7596 >>>> m: 1-510-435-8234 >>>> skype: kcoylenet >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ol-discuss mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-discuss >>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to >>>> [email protected] >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Karen Coyle >> [email protected] http://kcoyle.net >> ph: 1-510-540-7596 >> m: 1-510-435-8234 >> skype: kcoylenet > -- Karen Coyle [email protected] http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet _______________________________________________ Ol-discuss mailing list [email protected] http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-discuss To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [email protected]
