[Winona Online Democracy]
Of course not. Horrors are horrors, whatever the motivation. As for
talking dogs, a major figure in the Bible purportedly took the advice of a
talking shrubbery.
For those who may have missed my point, I in no way advocate any kind of
limitation be placed upon the freedom of religious practitioners to follow
their beliefs. Indeed, it would be a monstrous hypocrisy for someone to
declare their support for the freedom of one group to follow its beliefs
while demanding another be prevented from doing so.
If a group was organized called "Stand Together Opposing Christianity,"
I would be as vehemently opposed to any attempt by that organization to
harass local churches out of practicing their beliefs or lobby for legal
restrictions on their freedom to conduct services as I am to its
anti-pornography equivalent's to inhibit and/or prohibit a legal business
from operating in Winona. The religious and feminist groups that make up
the bulk of STOP are demanding "free speech for me and not for thee." This
is illogical, arrogant, and, as I said, monstrously hypocritical.
As for my feelings about religion, I merely sought to point out that in the
same way STOP and others can use the horrible things done by a minority of
pornography consumers to assert the evil nature of pornography, someone else
can likewise use the horrible things done by a minority of a particular
religion's adherents to establish the evil nature of Christianity, Islam,
Buddhism, Judaism, etc., and I doubt that STOP or anyone else is very likely
to start demanding licensing for ministers or heavy regulation of church
operation anytime soon. Although, I have pages of text from the Bible which
could easily be called "obscene." I think it wise to beware the applicaiton
of semantics regarding anyone's civil liberties.
"First, they came for the communists, and I did not speak up, because I was
not a communist..."
>From: "Gene Thiele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "andrew thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [Winona] New Subject-Adult store...
>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:12:04 -0600
>
>[Winona Online Democracy]
>
>Andrew,
>
>No. But everyone has to believe in something. Would it be better if the
>horrors you refer to had been committed for money, fame, property, or
>power?
>And who's to say those texts are wrong. It's not like they were 'Son of
>Sam' listening to their dog tell them what to do.
>
>People of faith have rights too. If they object any business operation in
>Winona, they have a right to voice their concerns. And even work to
>restrict the liberty of the business owner. That's seems to be how it
>works. If the ACLU works to stop prayer at public school gatherings, to
>protect an atheist, aren't they restricting the liberty of the student of
>faith.
>
>To my recollection, the Supreme Court has ruled that obscenity is to be
>defined by the community. Well...this is your opportunity to help define
>what's obscene in Winona.
>
>Gene Thiele
>Winona, MN
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "andrew thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2000 10:53 PM
>Subject: RE: [Winona] New Subject-Adult store...
>
>
> > [Winona Online Democracy]
> >
> > Shall we even get into the horrors committed by people who believed that
> > their respective sacred texts (Bible, Koran, Baghavad Gita, etc.)
> > instructed them to do so?
> >
> > >From: Jeff Dankert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: RE: [Winona] New Subject-Adult store...
> > >Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:50:18 -0600
> > >
> > >[Winona Online Democracy]
> > >
> > >We need to examine real vs. favored/perceived evils in our city.
>Favored
> > >evils often don't provide the hard data as evils, but are treated as
>such:
> > >these could include crack cocaine and pornography. Real ones might be
> > >apathy, intolerance and booze.
> > >
> > >Jeff Dankert
> > >Winona Daily News
> > >601 Franklin St
> > >PO Box 5147
> > >Winona MN 55987-5147
> > >(507) 453-3513
> > >(800) 328-2182
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of andrew
> > >thompson
> > >Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 2:38 AM
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: [Winona] New Subject-Adult store...
> > >
> > >
> > >[Winona Online Democracy]
> > >
> > >John Lennon's killer was carrying a copy of CATCHER IN THE RYE.
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Larry Strange" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Subject: Re: [Winona] New Subject-Adult store...
> > > >Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:34:45 -0600
> > > >
> > > >[Winona Online Democracy]
> > > >
> > > >In regards to Mr. Westpfahl's 2nd point:
> > > >
> > > >2.) I am still a little curious about all this secondary affect
>stuff.
> > > >How many crimes have been proven to be caused by the book
>store??????????
> > > >Ok, How many crimes have been attributed to the affects of Alcohol?
> > > >Drunk Driving...physical and domestic abuse....other things.....
> > > >
> > > >One case that comes to mind concerning the secondary affect's of
> > > >pornography
> > > >is Ted Bundy.
> > > >
> > > >Grant it he did not purchase pornography in Winona however,
> > > >I don't think that really makes any differance. He did admit that
>though
> > > >that pornography was the major influence as to why he murdered so
> > > >many innocent woman.
> > > >
> > > >L. Strange
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Mark J. Westpfahl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 5:50 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Winona] New Subject-Adult store...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > [Winona Online Democracy]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >*************************************************************************
> > > > > I agree ...to an extent.
> > > > > The citizens of Winona have the right to determine what they find
>to
> > >be
> > > > > appropriate or inappropriate. If they happen to form a committee
>or
> > > >group,
> > > > > that is wonderful. If they are willing to attend meetings, and
>make
> > >sure
> > > > > that their voice is hear, I am all for that. They are doing more
>to
> > >make
> > > > > sure it stops, than the people who are for the book store(s)
> > > > > or at least more than the people that really don't care about the
> > >issue.
> > > > > They are doing something I am for...speaking their minds, and
>voicing
> > > >their
> > > > > concerns.
> > > > > They are doing it the right way, and they are taking it to the who
> > >will
> > > > > listen the most, and have the athority to do something...the city
> > > >council.
> > > > > However, I do not agree that every Winonan is for stopping
> > > >"pornograghy."
> > > > > They have just as much right to do the same, unfortunately they
>are
> > >not
> > > > > doing it on such a grand scale as orginizations such as STOP.
> > > > >
> > > > > I Only have two other comments----
> > > > >
> > > > > 1.) City Council better be willing to have a darn good
>justification
> > >for
> > > > > spending Winonans tax dollars when the city goes to court, and if
>all
> > > >other
> > > > > recent Minnesota cases prove themselves again, and the city will
>lose.
> > > > > I do believe we could be investing our money a little more wisely.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2.) I am still a little curious about all this secondary affect
>stuff.
> > > > > How many crimes have been proven to be caused by the book
> > > >store??????????
> > > > > Ok, How many crimes have been attributed to the affects of
>Alcohol?
> > > > > Drunk Driving...physical and domestic abuse....other things.....
> > > > >
> > > > > AGAIN< I AM NOT SAYING I AM FOR OR AGAINST THE BUSINESSES....I do
> > > >realize
> > > > > that it is much easier to record such behavior when measuring
>alcohol,
> > > >but
> > > >I
> > > > > have seen no evidence YET about any such affects, even from our
>own
> > > >Police
> > > > > Chief.
> > > > > So, If anybody is willing to give me more facts on any of these
> > >points,
> > > >It
> > > > > would benifit me to making a better decision, and hopefully it can
> > > >educate
> > > > > others also.
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > Mark J. Westpfahl
> > > > >
> > >
> >*************************************************************************
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > >Subject: [Winona] New Subject
> > > > > >Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:26:46 EST
> > > > > >
> > > > > >[Winona Online Democracy]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >After viewing some of last Monday's City Council meeting
>regarding
> > >the
> > > > > >so-called
> > > > > >adult book store here in Winona i am more convinced than ever
>that
> > >this
> > > >is
> > > > > >NOT
> > > > > >about pornography, it's alleged secondary effects or even about a
> > > >specific
> > > > > >book and
> > > > > >video store.
> > > > > >What it is about in my opinion is power. A small group of people
> > >(STOP
> > > >and
> > > > > >their
> > > > > >supporters) trying to impose their idea of what is right and
>wrong
>on
> > > >the
> > > > > >rest of the
> > > > > >community. They want to decide for the rest of
> > > > > >us what books to read, videos to watch, etc. And they are trying
>to
> > >use
> > > >the
> > > > > >City
> > > > > >Council as a conduit for there power trip.
> > > > > >If they are successful in closing or severely restricting this
>store,
> > >i
> > > > > >fear
> > > > > >that they will
> > > > > >not be satisfied with that. Already there has been
> > > > > >some implication from that group that they have other targets,
>e.g.
> > > > > >television
> > > > > >programs, that they want to censor next.
> > > > > >So the question for the City Council and for all of us in Winona
>is,
> > > >are
> > > >we
> > > > > >going to let
> > > > > >them impose their view on what is right and wrong on others, or
>will
> > >we
> > > > > >insist that the
> > > > > >City Council do the right thing and support the Constitutionally
> > > >protected
> > > > > >the right of
> > > > > >the store to exist. And in the process safe-guard for all
>Winonans
> > >the
> > > > > >right
> > > > > >to chose
> > > > > >for themselves what form of entertainment is right for them to
>enjoy
> > > >within
> > > > > >the
> > > > > >sanctity of their private lives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Dean Lanz
> > > > > >----------------
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> > >
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