You two are some of the smartest admins I know, and I've known a few. With mastery obviously comes strong opinions and equally strong working habits. This is probably the largest migration effort Apache has ever done. It is certainly a huge effort from OOo's perspective, since it is a technical, procedural and social change. We obviously really need both of your help in the coming days and weeks. Can we find a way to cool off rather than escalate? Tomorrow is another day.
Thanks, -Rob On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Gavin McDonald <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 8:02 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists >> >> Dennis, >> >> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No. As to the long one: ... >> >> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for sound >> commercial reasons -- though this has resulted in personal consequences for >> a lot of people who worked on OOo and who no longer have a job. Now >> we've now got some services running unmanned, because the people have >> gone. >> >> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was already >> providing expert support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, and I was >> able to step in with his active cooperation before he "left the building". >> >> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to the >> Apache project wherever possible, and it will find the necessary mechanisms >> to grant project members who have the right technical skills and track record >> to take over these systems. Our main problem is that this list currently >> seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are others who could >> potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, Kay and Drew. However >> we are all already working to our limits. Maybe we just need a cloning >> machine :( > > Once we have documentation in place, any infra person can jump in and help > should the need arise. > >> >> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel >> that >> I am caught between a rock and a hard place. My work is time consuming >> and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer, >> but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin. In some ways you need to be >> an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this expertise. >> I >> am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about >> hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine. Again this only my >> personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers >> and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a few >> individuals. It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains of >> expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more >> relevant to the work and Apache's wider mission. In short I am being asked >> to work long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional >> environment. > > Nobody is asking you to so anything, you are a volunteer, you can do zero > hours > if it pleases you, Your hours are governed by what you want to put in, not > what > anybody tells you to do. > > Please explain what you mean by dysfunctional? > > FWIW I've been bending over backwards trying to help you with infra stuff, > but you > are a stubborn old git who will not listen to how we do things around here. > We have > accommodated just about every need, every weird way you do things, now it is > time > for you to listen to us and fit in with us. I've been prepared to help you do > this but > then you just go and piss me off with outlandish emails like this one. > > > If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be >> seriously thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who spent 32 >> years working with the same company working to get to its top technical tier >> -- and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono. > > This is a volunteer organisation, guess what, you are not the only person > here doing > work for nothing. Please do not yet again spout off your credentials or your > countless > millions of hours spent on this, we KNOW, we are very grateful but I am > getting tired > of you always shoving it in our face as an excuse for us to have to bow down > and do > it the Terry way. We are not stupid, do not treat us as stupid. You are not > stupid, we know > that. We are not here to piss you off, but you seem to trying very hard to do > that to me > at least. Now, quit the jibes and learn to do things in a way that will > please us all. > > Gav... > >> >> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the project, >> don't have the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I am still here >> in 3 >> months and this is still an outstanding issue, then I'll try to sort it out. >> >> Regards Terry >> >> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: >> > Um, so your answer is no? >> > >> > You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on the live >> openoffice.org site? >> > >> > Any suggestions? >> > >> > - Dennis >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Terry Ellison [mailto:[email protected]] >> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04 To:[email protected] >> > Cc:[email protected] >> > Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists >> > >> > Dennis, >> > >> > As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split >> > between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs. >> > Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have >> > anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v. >> > >> > However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue of >> > the mail forwarder. It's more an application issue if we get control >> > of the application support. I have exactly the same issues with my >> > mail responder that is built into the forums. >> > >> >> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to the >> >> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for >> >> http://fr.openoffice.org (apparently at >> >> <http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists>). >> >> >> >> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block >> a >> >> bad echo? >> >> >> >> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates three >> >> notices [email protected]. Then we need to find the >> >> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding site >> >> and disable those. >> >> >> >> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve >> >> these portions of the openoffice.org domain. >> >> >> >> - Dennis >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:[email protected]] >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47 >> >> To:[email protected] >> >> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums >> >> >> >> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have a >> >> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site. If >> >> any committers would like to have access to these, then just make >> >> sure that they've got an active account on the current production >> >> service (not >> >> ooo-forums.apache.org) and email me me from it requesting access. I >> >> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main >> >> closed forums. >> >> >> >> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are >> >> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer. >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> Terr > >
