The problem isn't "Gavin needs to cool off". The problem is "Terry and Infra need to find a way to work together without constantly stepping on each other's toes".
On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 18:33 -0400, "Rob Weir" <[email protected]> wrote: > You two are some of the smartest admins I know, and I've known a few. > With mastery obviously comes strong opinions and equally strong > working habits. This is probably the largest migration effort Apache > has ever done. It is certainly a huge effort from OOo's perspective, > since it is a technical, procedural and social change. We obviously > really need both of your help in the coming days and weeks. Can we > find a way to cool off rather than escalate? Tomorrow is another day. > > Thanks, > > -Rob > > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Gavin McDonald <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:[email protected]] > >> Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 8:02 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Cc: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists > >> > >> Dennis, > >> > >> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No. As to the long one: ... > >> > >> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for sound > >> commercial reasons -- though this has resulted in personal consequences for > >> a lot of people who worked on OOo and who no longer have a job. Now > >> we've now got some services running unmanned, because the people have > >> gone. > >> > >> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was already > >> providing expert support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, and I was > >> able to step in with his active cooperation before he "left the building". > >> > >> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to the > >> Apache project wherever possible, and it will find the necessary mechanisms > >> to grant project members who have the right technical skills and track > >> record > >> to take over these systems. Our main problem is that this list currently > >> seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are others who could > >> potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, Kay and Drew. However > >> we are all already working to our limits. Maybe we just need a cloning > >> machine :( > > > > Once we have documentation in place, any infra person can jump in and help > > should the need arise. > > > >> > >> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel > >> that > >> I am caught between a rock and a hard place. My work is time consuming > >> and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer, > >> but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin. In some ways you need to > >> be > >> an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this > >> expertise. I > >> am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about > >> hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine. Again this only > >> my > >> personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers > >> and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a few > >> individuals. It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains of > >> expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more > >> relevant to the work and Apache's wider mission. In short I am being asked > >> to work long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional > >> environment. > > > > Nobody is asking you to so anything, you are a volunteer, you can do zero > > hours > > if it pleases you, Your hours are governed by what you want to put in, not > > what > > anybody tells you to do. > > > > Please explain what you mean by dysfunctional? > > > > FWIW I've been bending over backwards trying to help you with infra stuff, > > but you > > are a stubborn old git who will not listen to how we do things around here. > > We have > > accommodated just about every need, every weird way you do things, now it > > is time > > for you to listen to us and fit in with us. I've been prepared to help you > > do this but > > then you just go and piss me off with outlandish emails like this one. > > > > > If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be > >> seriously thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who spent > >> 32 > >> years working with the same company working to get to its top technical > >> tier > >> -- and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono. > > > > This is a volunteer organisation, guess what, you are not the only person > > here doing > > work for nothing. Please do not yet again spout off your credentials or > > your countless > > millions of hours spent on this, we KNOW, we are very grateful but I am > > getting tired > > of you always shoving it in our face as an excuse for us to have to bow > > down and do > > it the Terry way. We are not stupid, do not treat us as stupid. You are not > > stupid, we know > > that. We are not here to piss you off, but you seem to trying very hard to > > do that to me > > at least. Now, quit the jibes and learn to do things in a way that will > > please us all. > > > > Gav... > > > >> > >> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the project, > >> don't have the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I am still > >> here in 3 > >> months and this is still an outstanding issue, then I'll try to sort it > >> out. > >> > >> Regards Terry > >> > >> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > >> > Um, so your answer is no? > >> > > >> > You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on the > >> > live > >> openoffice.org site? > >> > > >> > Any suggestions? > >> > > >> > - Dennis > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Terry Ellison [mailto:[email protected]] > >> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04 To:[email protected] > >> > Cc:[email protected] > >> > Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists > >> > > >> > Dennis, > >> > > >> > As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split > >> > between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs. > >> > Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have > >> > anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v. > >> > > >> > However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue of > >> > the mail forwarder. It's more an application issue if we get control > >> > of the application support. I have exactly the same issues with my > >> > mail responder that is built into the forums. > >> > > >> >> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to the > >> >> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for > >> >> http://fr.openoffice.org (apparently at > >> >> <http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists>). > >> >> > >> >> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block > >> a > >> >> bad echo? > >> >> > >> >> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates three > >> >> notices [email protected]. Then we need to find the > >> >> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding site > >> >> and disable those. > >> >> > >> >> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve > >> >> these portions of the openoffice.org domain. > >> >> > >> >> - Dennis > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:[email protected]] > >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47 > >> >> To:[email protected] > >> >> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums > >> >> > >> >> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have a > >> >> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site. If > >> >> any committers would like to have access to these, then just make > >> >> sure that they've got an active account on the current production > >> >> service (not > >> >> ooo-forums.apache.org) and email me me from it requesting access. I > >> >> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main > >> >> closed forums. > >> >> > >> >> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are > >> >> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer. > >> >> > >> >> Regards > >> >> Terr > > > > >
