On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Daniel Shahaf <[email protected]> wrote: > The problem isn't "Gavin needs to cool off". The problem is "Terry and Infra > need to find a way to work together without constantly stepping on each > other's toes". >
Fnding this "way to work together" will be easier if we all step back and cool off. Escalating insults has a way of reaching a point of no return. We should try to avoid that. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. -Rob > On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 18:33 -0400, "Rob Weir" <[email protected]> wrote: >> You two are some of the smartest admins I know, and I've known a few. >> With mastery obviously comes strong opinions and equally strong >> working habits. This is probably the largest migration effort Apache >> has ever done. It is certainly a huge effort from OOo's perspective, >> since it is a technical, procedural and social change. We obviously >> really need both of your help in the coming days and weeks. Can we >> find a way to cool off rather than escalate? Tomorrow is another day. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -Rob >> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Gavin McDonald <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:[email protected]] >> >> Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 8:02 AM >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Cc: [email protected] >> >> Subject: Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists >> >> >> >> Dennis, >> >> >> >> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No. As to the long one: ... >> >> >> >> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for sound >> >> commercial reasons -- though this has resulted in personal consequences >> >> for >> >> a lot of people who worked on OOo and who no longer have a job. Now >> >> we've now got some services running unmanned, because the people have >> >> gone. >> >> >> >> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was already >> >> providing expert support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, and I was >> >> able to step in with his active cooperation before he "left the building". >> >> >> >> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to the >> >> Apache project wherever possible, and it will find the necessary >> >> mechanisms >> >> to grant project members who have the right technical skills and track >> >> record >> >> to take over these systems. Our main problem is that this list currently >> >> seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are others who could >> >> potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, Kay and Drew. >> >> However >> >> we are all already working to our limits. Maybe we just need a cloning >> >> machine :( >> > >> > Once we have documentation in place, any infra person can jump in and help >> > should the need arise. >> > >> >> >> >> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel >> >> that >> >> I am caught between a rock and a hard place. My work is time consuming >> >> and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer, >> >> but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin. In some ways you need to >> >> be >> >> an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this >> >> expertise. I >> >> am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about >> >> hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine. Again this >> >> only my >> >> personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers >> >> and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a >> >> few >> >> individuals. It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains of >> >> expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more >> >> relevant to the work and Apache's wider mission. In short I am being >> >> asked >> >> to work long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional >> >> environment. >> > >> > Nobody is asking you to so anything, you are a volunteer, you can do zero >> > hours >> > if it pleases you, Your hours are governed by what you want to put in, not >> > what >> > anybody tells you to do. >> > >> > Please explain what you mean by dysfunctional? >> > >> > FWIW I've been bending over backwards trying to help you with infra stuff, >> > but you >> > are a stubborn old git who will not listen to how we do things around >> > here. We have >> > accommodated just about every need, every weird way you do things, now it >> > is time >> > for you to listen to us and fit in with us. I've been prepared to help you >> > do this but >> > then you just go and piss me off with outlandish emails like this one. >> > >> > > If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be >> >> seriously thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who >> >> spent 32 >> >> years working with the same company working to get to its top technical >> >> tier >> >> -- and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono. >> > >> > This is a volunteer organisation, guess what, you are not the only person >> > here doing >> > work for nothing. Please do not yet again spout off your credentials or >> > your countless >> > millions of hours spent on this, we KNOW, we are very grateful but I am >> > getting tired >> > of you always shoving it in our face as an excuse for us to have to bow >> > down and do >> > it the Terry way. We are not stupid, do not treat us as stupid. You are >> > not stupid, we know >> > that. We are not here to piss you off, but you seem to trying very hard to >> > do that to me >> > at least. Now, quit the jibes and learn to do things in a way that will >> > please us all. >> > >> > Gav... >> > >> >> >> >> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the project, >> >> don't have the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I am still >> >> here in 3 >> >> months and this is still an outstanding issue, then I'll try to sort it >> >> out. >> >> >> >> Regards Terry >> >> >> >> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: >> >> > Um, so your answer is no? >> >> > >> >> > You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on the >> >> > live >> >> openoffice.org site? >> >> > >> >> > Any suggestions? >> >> > >> >> > - Dennis >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Terry Ellison [mailto:[email protected]] >> >> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04 To:[email protected] >> >> > Cc:[email protected] >> >> > Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists >> >> > >> >> > Dennis, >> >> > >> >> > As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split >> >> > between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs. >> >> > Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have >> >> > anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v. >> >> > >> >> > However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue of >> >> > the mail forwarder. It's more an application issue if we get control >> >> > of the application support. I have exactly the same issues with my >> >> > mail responder that is built into the forums. >> >> > >> >> >> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to the >> >> >> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for >> >> >> http://fr.openoffice.org (apparently at >> >> >> <http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists>). >> >> >> >> >> >> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block >> >> a >> >> >> bad echo? >> >> >> >> >> >> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates three >> >> >> notices [email protected]. Then we need to find the >> >> >> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding site >> >> >> and disable those. >> >> >> >> >> >> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve >> >> >> these portions of the openoffice.org domain. >> >> >> >> >> >> - Dennis >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:[email protected]] >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47 >> >> >> To:[email protected] >> >> >> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have a >> >> >> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site. If >> >> >> any committers would like to have access to these, then just make >> >> >> sure that they've got an active account on the current production >> >> >> service (not >> >> >> ooo-forums.apache.org) and email me me from it requesting access. I >> >> >> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main >> >> >> closed forums. >> >> >> >> >> >> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are >> >> >> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> Terr >> > >> > >> >
