I'm really not in the mood to dredge up old memories regarding the 'bad' stuff. But as I said, I'm not going to shut up about them and only show some glorified positive bit of history. People were curious what happened, so I told the story. My version of it anyway, and uncensored. Since I was absolutely sure you'd not like it I even jotted down a PPS and left out names of the people involved. If you feel it needs correcting, be my guest. But don't try to pin it on me.
There's a dutch proverb along the lines of; When two quarrel both are in the wrong. And I want this to be clear. I'm not saying it was entirely OGP's fault, I'm not saying it was entirely mine. I just want to point out that a lot of things went wrong, boiling down to management and sheer politics, or as you say, even NDA's. Fact remains that somebody at some point directed me to the available (!) commercial product, in a time OGP was struggling hard to get things running. Sure it was expected that being open source hardware, at some point a company would spin off it's own variety. But we were thoroughly beaten to the market, killing off any chance the project got capturing a niche, and you among others KNEW THIS. The entire goal of the project had been to build an open source solution from the ground up, to PREVENT the problems with reverse engineering drivers for nvidia / amd, and here we were, again with a piece of hardware that had already hit the market but simply wasn't open source supported yet. And to make matters worse, commercial entities were able to get their hands on it, while the open source community couldn't! So I tossed it on the mailing list, and your reply? NDA. Ok fine. But the I've *seen* the thing. How can I break anyone's NDA on that? How is that unethical? Were you just expecting me to look the other way? "Oh yeah I know that model, it just doesn't exist yet, must've hallucinated it". And I agree, I could've handled it more gracefully than flat out tossing it in the mailing list. But I had something close to a panic attack, and I'm certain you did too after you noticed I found out. But really, did that even matter? Sooner or later somebody else would've found out who hadn't signed a NDA (I didn't do the discovery either, I was just informed by a friend) and brought it in the spotlight. It just happened to be me opening up this pandora's box. This mail is getting far too long already. I'll just conclude with that what I did I think *wasn't* unethical. I just asked for clarification, which happened to be some 'big secret'. Shit hit the fan, yes, but the fan and the shit were both there, and it was a matter of time before it did. And I also think things got wildly blown out of proportions, but hey, that's only human. It just still irks me that we were kept in the dark, and when it got out, I was supposedly the boogyman. I still think OGP did some great things (which I also mentioned earlier) and had a blast contributing, things like the LinuxTag booth etc, but after that particular bitch fight we had I was done and moved on with my life. I also like to point out that after all these years I'm still on this mailing list, mostly idling along (or in your words, "telling everyone"), because I *do* still want to see OGP succeed. But not with my help. Cheers, Michael On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Timothy Normand Miller <[email protected]>wrote: > Michael, > > I've never understood your objection to Tech Source's involvement with > regard to OGD1. Traversal Technology was specifically and openly > commissioned to act as the commercial wing for the OGP, with full > copyright ownership of all IP, and this included the right to act > under secrecy, as long as it was not counter to the goals of FOSS or > the OGP. Moreover, although we were not always required to do so, we > disclosed our activities to the OHF. There was nothing improper or > unethical going on here at any point. Rather, there was an equitable > exchange of IP between Traversal and Tech Source that (a) we were set > up to do, and (b) added more to the FOSS community. Without Tech > Source, and use of their facilities, software licenses, and test > equipment, we could not have completed the design to OGD1. It just so > happens that a lot of that design was shared with another commercial > product. Naturally, we had it in mind that other companies might > reuse parts of the OGD1 design and even buy OGD1 boards and embed them > in commercial products, so there's no technical difference here. > There was a two-way exchange of elements of both PCB design and FPGA > code. > > I'm sorry that you feel disillusioned by this, but it's common for > commercial entities to contribute to FOSS projects, and it's not > unheard-of for them to do it anonymously. By going around telling > everyone about this, you have done nothing good and have caused harm > by interfering with someone else's nondisclosure agreement. So we > have done something that you, unilaterally and without being fully > informed, have decided was unethical; why does that justify unethical > action on your part? > > > On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Michael Meeuwisse > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi! > > > > I still find it amazing that projectvga comes up from time to time, I get > > the occasional email asking for more details, source code, etc, and now > it > > found it's way once again on Phoronix. Let me first make an end to any > > remaining doubters; yes it's dead. The prototype is still laying around > > somewhere in my room, but I haven't touched it in years. > > > > There's a bunch of reasons for this. > > > > First; > >> ...making it really not viable for anything but enthusiasts/developers > >> wishing to tinker... > > The website hit around the time of fosdem '08 and the general '15 > minutes of > > fame' a few hundred thousand visitors, the guy in charge of the webserver > > had to upgrade due to traffic, etc. To keep things going, we needed some > > bootstrap money (a problem not unknown to OGP either, but I'll get to > that) > > so we jotted down a target date and basically said "whoever wants one, > speak > > up, if there's enough people, we can get things rolling". There wasn't. > In > > total of those hundreds of thousands people, 7 (!) actually wanted one, > and > > a handful more wanted just the PCB to hand solder. With 'enough', the > target > > was around 100. Only 93-ish people short. Not encouraging. These days I > > would toss it up on kickstarter and might be more lucky, especially after > > seeing the Raspberry Pi craze lately. But in 2008 it proved to be a too > > alien concept. > > > > Second; > > The prototype was flawed. Badly. The PCI wasn't working at all. The > memory > > interface was too noisy. The data loader for the FPGA was Xilinx's > > proprietary interface was, combined with open source software, > unreliable as > > hell. Working with the official tools did the trick on that front, but > that > > would mean Windows etc, not very inviting for the few devvers who would > > actually want to use the card. I did reverse engineer it to the point > that I > > got it working reliably, but it didn't interface decently with other > > existing open source tools etc. Basically the chips weren't properly > > supported. These days they are (and support more friendly non-proprietary > > interfaces) so again I'd say it was a little too much ahead of time. But > > note that the FPGA 'compiler' of sorts still is mainly closed source > windows > > material last time I checked. > > On the hardware buggyness front, that wasn't really surprising. I was a > > student (still am, but again I'll get to that later), and getting it > right > > in one shot would've been nothing short of a miracle (even if I hadn't > been > > a student). I still think I could've handled this better by recruiting > more > > people from the community somehow, but I was new to this management-angle > > and failed. Lesson learned. > > > > It's not uncommon to do a few prototype iterations, but without proper > > funding (see earlier) I had to invest from my own wallet, and being a > > student and all, enough was enough. > > > > Third; > > OGP. The problem of money-bootstrapping and getting people onboard who > > really knew what they were doing when it comes to hardware design had > been > > partially solved, but everybody was kept in the dark about the how. Turns > > out the company a few main contributors work for invested time & money, > > designed the hardware card for (iirc) flight control, and OGP could > > 'piggyback' on this. All they had to do was write their own firmware. > They > > was also some input in the hw design naturally, and for marketing reasons > > I'm told there are a few subtle differences between the two end results, > but > > that hardly matters. We weren't told. To this day this pisses me off. > > Essentially all discussions on the OGP mailing list about design etc were > > used as input to produce a proprietary card for a company, and once the > card > > was done OGP still had to find the 100 or so 'first buyers' before they > > could produce their 'own' batch. Worse, the big shots in the project knew > > about this, agreed on this, and kept it from the rest of us. I for one > felt > > used. A real "Luke, I am your father" moment. Here we were, trying to get > > open source hardware out in this world, only to find it was a corporate > > product all along. Maybe I'm overreacting, and I knew I didn't manage > > particularly well community-wise for projectvga, but this was simply too > > hard to grok. Too evil. There's plenty of projects with developers > supported > > by companies (just to name a random one; linux) but doing it secretly? > No. > > Just no. I abandoned the idea of OGP entirely after getting to know this. > > > > If memory serves me right this was after I spun off the projectvga > project > > to drive the price down, because I couldn't get my head around the > insanely > > high requirements and equally high cost of the design that was pushed. > > Hindsight 20/20. It really put a dent in my spirit. > > > > Fourth; > > amd/nvidia open source efforts really got off. I remember being floored > by > > the Nouveau team that day at Fosdem '08, and amd (ati back then? doesn't > > matter) stepped up their game as well. I like to think the open graphics > > 'movement', and OGP in particular, really did help push for more open > source > > support from them. I don't think projectvga had much influence on it, but > > these better drivers did put another nail in its coffin. If there ever > was a > > window to get it to market, it was back then, not now. > > > > Fifth; > > Interests. As I mentioned earlier, I'm still a student. I got a little > fed > > up with sitting behind my desk all day staring at hardware designs, so > I've > > been doing a cognitive science master as well as a cognitive > neuropsychology > > master. Two masters simultaneously really murder all your spare time, > but I > > love it. In short; I moved from how hardware computers work to how > wetware > > computers (i.e. your brain) work, and ideally I'll someday translate one > to > > the other; true artificial intelligence. And this might need some > > specialized hardware, who knows... I'll let you know when I get there. ;) > > > > Hope this clarifies things, I really outta update the projectvga website > > with this rant some day. Regarding OGP (I'm sending this also to > phoronix, > > so sorry for you mailinglist guys who already know this), there are cards > > out there and as far as I know, they are in use. Which is fantastic! Alas > > not by me. > > For projectvga, I abandoned it entirely after I switched to my masters a > few > > years back (time flies, other things happened in between, not going to > bore > > you with that). I get the occasional email from enthousiasts who want to > > give the source a fresh look, see if they can use bits and pieces (it did > > control a screen through the USB debug interface in the end after all) > for > > their own projects, and I send them in the right direction. It's still > all > > available as GPLv3 but god knows in what kind of buggy state. But other > than > > that it's completely dead. I've learned TONS doing it and absolutely > loved > > most of it, but times change. > > > > I've moved from what happens in front of the eye to what happens behind > it. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Michael Meeuwisse > > > > PS. The website still works, to my knowledge. http://projectvga.org or > > http://wacco.mveas.com > > PPS. Apologies to anyone offended / not happy me bringing up the 'taboo' > of > > the third point. This isn't personal, but the 'secret' is out and I'm not > > going to play along doing ssssshhhh. > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Dieter BSD <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> [ trying again now that mail list is back up ] > >> > >> Michael Larabel is saying that OGP is dead. (and Project VGA as well) > >> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEwNTQ > >> > >> > http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?71079-The-Open-Source-Graphics-Card-Is-Dead > >> > >> Some may think that there is no longer any need for OGP since > >> AMD/ATI is documenting their GPUs, but after several years > >> the documentation still leave MUCH to be desired. A big fat zero > >> docs (or FLOSS code) on UVD for one example. > >> > >> I see a lot of buzz about crowd funding, there must be a way > >> to tap into that? > >> > >> I haven't seen any activity on the mailing list in ages. > >> So... is it dead, Jim, er, Tim? > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Open-graphics mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics > >> List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Open-graphics mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics > > List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com) > > > > -- > Timothy Normand Miller > http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~millerti > Open Graphics Project >
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