@Matthias, no, I am not kidding. Put your faith in the technology, not the politics.
> On 30 Sep 2013, at 22:03, Matthias Hänel <hae...@ultramixer.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without > choking on it. Sure there > are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy > over and over again about > the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we > have a running bussiness > where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. > > This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an > active member of this community. > He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the > counterpart by managing the > backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. > Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal > workshops for the developers > to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This > summer we focused our development > on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning > APIs and fixing JNI for java8. > > Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our > fellow developers has been > more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream > "code-once-run-anywhere" comes true. The closer > JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the > more we got fed up over here. > As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had > been held. Just to summarize > our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is > investment of money and time on > one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future > technology. > > > I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they > appear over here. > > What did we heard over here from JavaOne? > > 1. JavaFX is still in development > 2. Dukepad is released > 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup > (4. Javafx runs in a browser) > > > I'll start at the bottom: > > (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript > and web technologies as well. > This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere > applies but all tough real world > applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and won't > be cross platform in the near future.) > > 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. > I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the > world. I don't speak only about JavaFX, > there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much here. > > 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, > hacking firmware and much cool stuff > in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when > I have seen that it was a childish puzzle > with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting > angry to see a 100 men powered development > team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would > be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo > on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word > about iOS, Android, Windows8. > Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? > I am really sure non of the major > hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since > Android is also free to us and is > much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that > Oracle comes up with their own > iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision > make no sense to me. > > 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of today > it looks like a major development for > years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just a very > big shiny demo. > > short history summarize: > ------------------------ > 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 > couldn't really convince due to an strange way > of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so JavaFX2 was > create. The software design is outstanding > and the potential is not even comparable from my point of view. Well, it was > already time to look at the other platforms. > 2012 it was announced (but canceled) to run on iOS/Android and now 2013 it > was announced again (but canceled). > From our current point of view it looks like we just have to use the already > developed parts on desktop and for mobile > we will have to start a complete new development branch. This will work for a > short time but in the long term we'll > probably step back from JavaFX and even Java and develop our own abstraction > layer. This is sad and costs a lot of time > that we would need to build our real products. > > > To make it clear. Everytime I read arm-build I think there is further > development in the right direction, but wrong > it's still the same linux-arm-build. We don't need an arm build for javafx. > We need an iOS-build, an Android-build > and a Windows-build for the jre and javafx. Don't get me wrong you can > prototype where ever you want even on Pi, but > don't forget to deploy to a platform of importance. > > > > One more thing: > --------------- > To be honest ADF is kind of a myth to me. I see some use cases for a > technology like this but not many. It's always > the same lame banking software. > Okay, ADF is a really easy to use in business software (banking,insurance and > so on) and very small and easy projects on the other side. > If a customer has a little more demand on new technologies you'll be lost > with ADF, then comes JavaFX in the game. > Porting from ADF to JavaFX should be that hard, but you cannot deploy it on > the same platforms like ADF. There is a gap > in the portfolio from my point of view. > > > > > these are my 2 cents > Matthias > > > > > >> Am 30.09.2013 um 12:13 schrieb Felix Bembrick <felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: >> >> Hey, I am trying to hose-down the political talk! I encourage everyone to >> take a deep breath and focus on the many positives of the awesome >> technology that is JavaFX :-) >> >> >>> On 30 September 2013 20:03, Hervé Girod <herve.gi...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> It's not the place to talk politics here. If you want to channel your >>> frustration, do it in your blog if you have one. >>> >>> Hervé >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 30 sept. 2013, at 11:14, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I absolutely agree Daniel. I opened a very important bug reporting >>> concerning JFX performance on iPhone which currently prevents using JavaFX >>> (and RoboVM) to build apps for the iPhone ( >>> https://javafx-jira.kenai.com/browse/RT-31453) this bug report is open >>> since 3(!) month! How shall the community build things for iOS if a very >>> base feature (bug) is not fixed by Oracles core team??? It’s a very bad >>> sign for engaged developers outside Oracle! >>>> >>>> So maybe we should say good by to the legacy of SUN and use web >>> technologies like JQuery, ExtJS, … with real community power and without an >>> US company who sees only money and legal issues. >>>> >>>> Maybe Larry loves to spend millions of dollars to win a boat race and >>> develop experimental „iPads“ rather then spend their time and money to >>> develop a technology with could be the base for ALL products, on Desktop, >>> embedded space, mobile, watches, … >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Tobi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 10:39 schrieb Daniel Zwolenski <zon...@gmail.com>: >>>>> >>>>> The lack of information on iOS/Android is a major bummer, but this also >>> highlights a deeper problem here. >>>>> >>>>> We have a situation where Oracle won't talk to this community because >>> the topic is important, it's too big a game changer for them to comment on. >>> It's tied in with share prices, and market strategies. >>>>> >>>>> So won't that be the case for anything *important* going forward? We >>> "community" members are outsiders and very lowly ranked, well below "real" >>> customers and even below random punters from the media. There's not even a >>> way for us to rank bugs and get them attention (even if we provide fixes!). >>>>> >>>>> What kind of community can this ever be if anything important can't be >>> discussed here before it's locked in, because it risks Oracle giving up a >>> commercial edge? Is this then a community only for discussing our favourite >>> method names for the API and pointing out that an enum constant is missing? >>>>> >>>>> I can't see any way that this forum provides any significant >>> contributions back to the platform - the occasional bug fix at best. JIRA >>> is fine for discussing bugs, method names and little things like that. Any >>> of the real community initiatives are run completely separate to this forum >>> because Oracle doesn't want anything to do with them, and all the >>> significant platform work takes place behind Oracle's closed doors and we >>> only hear about it after it's a done deal. >>>>> >>>>> From where I'm standing, the Oracle community concept is fundamentally >>> flawed, and the root cause is that Oracle just don't get how to interact >>> with a community. You want to use us but you're not very good at it, you're >>> not trying to improve (you don't think there's a problem) and ultimately >>> Oracle's culture won't let you do it properly anyway. The current approach >>> is a little like a car salesman trying to be your Facebook "friend". >>>>> >>>>> All the initiatives I got involved with through this forum have gone >>> nowhere - deployment (auto updating), the early Maven deployment work >>> (which Richard asked for), the tower defender game (which Richard asked >>> for), the jfx browser (which Richard asked for), even stuff as simple as >>> JIRA dashboards (which Richard again asked for). >>>>> >>>>> All these hit points where they needed Oracle to do their part of it >>> and then just stalled and then died. This community could have fostered a >>> lot of tools and efforts, and really propelled JFX into the bigger dev >>> community, but instead, for me, it has been a constant source of stress and >>> dissatisfaction, a hinderance and a hurdle. All pain, no gain. >>>>> >>>>> The only initiatives I actually made work were the JavaFX Maven plugin >>> and the RoboVM Maven plugin. With both of these I made a conscious decision >>> to not involve this forum or Oracle. I decided to cludge around platform >>> shortcomings, rather than work with Oracle to fix it (5 minute fixes would >>> have saved me days of work). >>>>> >>>>> That was the only way I could make these initiatives succeed since this >>> forum is a hinderance to contributing. It gives a false sense that Oracle >>> is listening and actively supporting the community. To anyone out there >>> wanting to do something in JFX tool space, I'd say start by leaving this >>> forum and working out what you can do without any access to the Oracle >>> guys, even if you make your own code contributions to the platform. Assume >>> you're an outsider - the cavalry is not coming, you're on your own. >>>>> >>>>> Given all that I'm walking away from this forum. I was waiting to hear >>> about the iOS/Android stuff first, but really even if they did announce >>> anything, it would be a long shot at best (untested, low resources, lack of >>> solid direction and most likely tied in with some Oracle ADF garbage or >>> similar). The uncertainty created by Oracle's mixed messages also killed >>> all momentum on the community RoboVM work. Meanwhile web based stuff is >>> getting stronger, cleaner and better tool support at an exponential rate, >>> including in the mobile space. >>>>> >>>>> If JavaFX one day actually provides a usable platform for non-Oracle >>> entrenched customers, and the developer world notices, I'll certainly >>> consider it. I reckon I'll hear about that through the usual tech media >>> channels first, rather than through here though. As Oracle themselves >>> pointed out at the 2012 JavaOne session the smart money is on web based >>> stuff (check out backbone.js and marionette.js for a desktop-like coding >>> experience, not bad and will get better faster than JFX improves). >>>>> >>>>> On that note, the JavaFX Maven plugin is about to go into decay mode. >>> It needs to be updated to work on Maven 3.1 (some libraries have changed >>> from 3.0) and there are a number of bugs and feature requests building up >>> that I've been ignoring. I have no incentive to do any of this so it will >>> unfortunately just rot. If anyone wants to pick it up, let me know (you >>> need a few free hours a week just to maintain it). I'm picking up stumps >>> and moving on. >>>>> >>>>> I also have the access rights for the openjfx Maven repo on Sonatype >>> (needed to deploy to Maven central). I imagine Sonatype would grant this >>> access to others if you apply and make a case for it, but if anyone wants >>> to do this let me know and I can notify sonatype to give you access and >>> save you some hassles. >>>>> >>>>> I think Niklas has the RoboVM Maven Plugin sorted now and can do >>> enhancements on that but I'm sure if anyone wanted to help him out he >>> wouldn't say no. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> >>> wrote: >>>>> I don’t understand why „all“ this people who needs JavaFX on >>> iOS/Android does not tell it Oracles management. And I don’t understand why >>> all this people use their time to develop all this demos and Rasp.PI stuff. >>> Who needs it? Why don’t we develop base stuff like iOS skins, Android >>> skins, iOS/Android widgets, RoboVM for Android, RoboVM using OpenJDK, … I >>> really love useful stuff like the „JavaFX maven plugin“ or the „AquaFX“ >>> project. That kind of development we need! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Tobi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 08:50 schrieb Felix Bembrick < >>> felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>> No, you are *not* the only one. We *all* need it. In fact, without it >>> happening soon, JavaFX is already dead. >>>>>> >>>>>> But let's not give up yet. Perhaps it's closer than we know. I am a >>> glass half full kinda guy :-) >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30 Sep 2013, at 16:40, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose „legal reasons“…. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For me it’s very frustrating to see every year the same procedure: >>> JavaFX-iOS/Android related tracks were canceled - „nerd“ stuff like >>> Rasp.PI, DukePad & Co were announced. Maybe I’m really the only one who >>> needs JavaFX on mobile to use JavaFX on desktop as well… :( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am 29.09.2013 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Martin <j...@reportmill.com>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It seems the JFX on iOS/Android were cancelled at the last moment. I >>> tried to keep expectations low this year, but I admit I harbored secret >>> hopes based on those sessions (a few embarrassingly optimistic >>> conversations with clients notwithstanding). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last week Tomas offered this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> about cancelled sessions please contact Mr. JavaOne >>> stephen.c...@oracle.com I believe he will give satisfactory answer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd like to take him up on that satisfactory offer. Also, can we run >>> the name "DukePad" by marketing again? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> jeff >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 29, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Daniel Zwolenski <zon...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The sessions aren't up yet from the looks of it. It would be great >>> to get an overall roundup of any new announcements or directions in any >>> case. Given this is the developer community network it would make sense in >>> my mind to highlight stuff like that in here. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For me, I'd love it if someone could quickly sum up any >>> announcements or sessions made about JavaFX for iOS, Android or in the >>> deployment space? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What happened at the sessions Tobi highlighted before ( >>> http://blog.software4java.com/?p=97), did anyone go to these and able to >>> give us some info? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2013, at 7:07 AM, Richard Bair <richard.b...@oracle.com> >>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The sessions, I think, are all being uploaded to Parley's ( >>> http://www.parleys.com), although I don't see any content there yet (not >>> sure how long it will take them to post-process, but usually it is pretty >>> fast). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Richard >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Daniel Zwolenski <zon...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone done or seen any good roundups (text or video) of the >>> JavaOne sessions relating to javafx? >
