I'm not an apologist for Oracle, but in their defense, I can't see any commercial company telegraphing their punches by pre-announcing technology. If you want support for those platforms, feel free fork the codebase and write it. I'd be satisified if we could get high-priority bugs and performance issues taken care of and back-ported to 7 on a monthly basis. Anything beyond that is just gravy.
Cheers, Mark On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> wrote: > The problem is the technology (no iOS/Android support) AND politics > (Oracle doesn’t speak to the community) > > > Am 30.09.2013 um 20:09 schrieb Felix Bembrick <felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: > > > @Matthias, no, I am not kidding. Put your faith in the technology, not > the politics. > > > >> On 30 Sep 2013, at 22:03, Matthias Hänel <hae...@ultramixer.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> > >> @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without > choking on it. Sure there > >> are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be > happy over and over again about > >> the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, > but we have a running bussiness > >> where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. > >> > >> This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an > active member of this community. > >> He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am > the counterpart by managing the > >> backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper > layers. > >> Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had > internal workshops for the developers > >> to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This > summer we focused our development > >> on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, > cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8. > >> > >> Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation > to our fellow developers has been > >> more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream > "code-once-run-anywhere" comes true. The closer > >> JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, > the more we got fed up over here. > >> As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us > had been held. Just to summarize > >> our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is > investment of money and time on > >> one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future > technology. > >> > >> > >> I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how > they appear over here. > >> > >> What did we heard over here from JavaOne? > >> > >> 1. JavaFX is still in development > >> 2. Dukepad is released > >> 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup > >> (4. Javafx runs in a browser) > >> > >> > >> I'll start at the bottom: > >> > >> (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use > JavaScript and web technologies as well. > >> This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure > write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world > >> applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and > won't be cross platform in the near future.) > >> > >> 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. > >> I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize > the world. I don't speak only about JavaFX, > >> there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to > much here. > >> > >> 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd > myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff > >> in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I > grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle > >> with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am > getting angry to see a 100 men powered development > >> team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that > would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo > >> on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No > word about iOS, Android, Windows8. > >> Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like > this? I am really sure non of the major > >> hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon > since Android is also free to us and is > >> much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image > is that Oracle comes up with their own > >> iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this > decision make no sense to me. > >> > >> 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of > today it looks like a major development for > >> years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just > a very big shiny demo. > >> > >> short history summarize: > >> ------------------------ > >> 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 > couldn't really convince due to an strange way > >> of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so > JavaFX2 was create. The software design is outstanding > >> and the potential is not even comparable from my point of view. Well, > it was already time to look at the other platforms. > >> 2012 it was announced (but canceled) to run on iOS/Android and now 2013 > it was announced again (but canceled). > >> From our current point of view it looks like we just have to use the > already developed parts on desktop and for mobile > >> we will have to start a complete new development branch. This will work > for a short time but in the long term we'll > >> probably step back from JavaFX and even Java and develop our own > abstraction layer. This is sad and costs a lot of time > >> that we would need to build our real products. > >> > >> > >> To make it clear. Everytime I read arm-build I think there is further > development in the right direction, but wrong > >> it's still the same linux-arm-build. We don't need an arm build for > javafx. We need an iOS-build, an Android-build > >> and a Windows-build for the jre and javafx. Don't get me wrong you can > prototype where ever you want even on Pi, but > >> don't forget to deploy to a platform of importance. > >> > >> > >> > >> One more thing: > >> --------------- > >> To be honest ADF is kind of a myth to me. I see some use cases for a > technology like this but not many. It's always > >> the same lame banking software. > >> Okay, ADF is a really easy to use in business software > (banking,insurance and so on) and very small and easy projects on the other > side. > >> If a customer has a little more demand on new technologies you'll be > lost with ADF, then comes JavaFX in the game. > >> Porting from ADF to JavaFX should be that hard, but you cannot deploy > it on the same platforms like ADF. There is a gap > >> in the portfolio from my point of view. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> these are my 2 cents > >> Matthias > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> Am 30.09.2013 um 12:13 schrieb Felix Bembrick < > felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: > >>> > >>> Hey, I am trying to hose-down the political talk! I encourage > everyone to > >>> take a deep breath and focus on the many positives of the awesome > >>> technology that is JavaFX :-) > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 30 September 2013 20:03, Hervé Girod <herve.gi...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> It's not the place to talk politics here. If you want to channel your > >>>> frustration, do it in your blog if you have one. > >>>> > >>>> Hervé > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>> On 30 sept. 2013, at 11:14, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I absolutely agree Daniel. I opened a very important bug reporting > >>>> concerning JFX performance on iPhone which currently prevents using > JavaFX > >>>> (and RoboVM) to build apps for the iPhone ( > >>>> https://javafx-jira.kenai.com/browse/RT-31453) this bug report is > open > >>>> since 3(!) month! How shall the community build things for iOS if a > very > >>>> base feature (bug) is not fixed by Oracles core team??? It’s a very > bad > >>>> sign for engaged developers outside Oracle! > >>>>> > >>>>> So maybe we should say good by to the legacy of SUN and use web > >>>> technologies like JQuery, ExtJS, … with real community power and > without an > >>>> US company who sees only money and legal issues. > >>>>> > >>>>> Maybe Larry loves to spend millions of dollars to win a boat race and > >>>> develop experimental „iPads“ rather then spend their time and money to > >>>> develop a technology with could be the base for ALL products, on > Desktop, > >>>> embedded space, mobile, watches, … > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> Tobi > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 10:39 schrieb Daniel Zwolenski <zon...@gmail.com>: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The lack of information on iOS/Android is a major bummer, but this > also > >>>> highlights a deeper problem here. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We have a situation where Oracle won't talk to this community > because > >>>> the topic is important, it's too big a game changer for them to > comment on. > >>>> It's tied in with share prices, and market strategies. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So won't that be the case for anything *important* going forward? We > >>>> "community" members are outsiders and very lowly ranked, well below > "real" > >>>> customers and even below random punters from the media. There's not > even a > >>>> way for us to rank bugs and get them attention (even if we provide > fixes!). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What kind of community can this ever be if anything important can't > be > >>>> discussed here before it's locked in, because it risks Oracle giving > up a > >>>> commercial edge? Is this then a community only for discussing our > favourite > >>>> method names for the API and pointing out that an enum constant is > missing? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I can't see any way that this forum provides any significant > >>>> contributions back to the platform - the occasional bug fix at best. > JIRA > >>>> is fine for discussing bugs, method names and little things like > that. Any > >>>> of the real community initiatives are run completely separate to this > forum > >>>> because Oracle doesn't want anything to do with them, and all the > >>>> significant platform work takes place behind Oracle's closed doors > and we > >>>> only hear about it after it's a done deal. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From where I'm standing, the Oracle community concept is > fundamentally > >>>> flawed, and the root cause is that Oracle just don't get how to > interact > >>>> with a community. You want to use us but you're not very good at it, > you're > >>>> not trying to improve (you don't think there's a problem) and > ultimately > >>>> Oracle's culture won't let you do it properly anyway. The current > approach > >>>> is a little like a car salesman trying to be your Facebook "friend". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> All the initiatives I got involved with through this forum have gone > >>>> nowhere - deployment (auto updating), the early Maven deployment work > >>>> (which Richard asked for), the tower defender game (which Richard > asked > >>>> for), the jfx browser (which Richard asked for), even stuff as simple > as > >>>> JIRA dashboards (which Richard again asked for). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> All these hit points where they needed Oracle to do their part of it > >>>> and then just stalled and then died. This community could have > fostered a > >>>> lot of tools and efforts, and really propelled JFX into the bigger dev > >>>> community, but instead, for me, it has been a constant source of > stress and > >>>> dissatisfaction, a hinderance and a hurdle. All pain, no gain. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The only initiatives I actually made work were the JavaFX Maven > plugin > >>>> and the RoboVM Maven plugin. With both of these I made a conscious > decision > >>>> to not involve this forum or Oracle. I decided to cludge around > platform > >>>> shortcomings, rather than work with Oracle to fix it (5 minute fixes > would > >>>> have saved me days of work). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> That was the only way I could make these initiatives succeed since > this > >>>> forum is a hinderance to contributing. It gives a false sense that > Oracle > >>>> is listening and actively supporting the community. To anyone out > there > >>>> wanting to do something in JFX tool space, I'd say start by leaving > this > >>>> forum and working out what you can do without any access to the Oracle > >>>> guys, even if you make your own code contributions to the platform. > Assume > >>>> you're an outsider - the cavalry is not coming, you're on your own. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Given all that I'm walking away from this forum. I was waiting to > hear > >>>> about the iOS/Android stuff first, but really even if they did > announce > >>>> anything, it would be a long shot at best (untested, low resources, > lack of > >>>> solid direction and most likely tied in with some Oracle ADF garbage > or > >>>> similar). The uncertainty created by Oracle's mixed messages also > killed > >>>> all momentum on the community RoboVM work. Meanwhile web based stuff > is > >>>> getting stronger, cleaner and better tool support at an exponential > rate, > >>>> including in the mobile space. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If JavaFX one day actually provides a usable platform for non-Oracle > >>>> entrenched customers, and the developer world notices, I'll certainly > >>>> consider it. I reckon I'll hear about that through the usual tech > media > >>>> channels first, rather than through here though. As Oracle themselves > >>>> pointed out at the 2012 JavaOne session the smart money is on web > based > >>>> stuff (check out backbone.js and marionette.js for a desktop-like > coding > >>>> experience, not bad and will get better faster than JFX improves). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On that note, the JavaFX Maven plugin is about to go into decay > mode. > >>>> It needs to be updated to work on Maven 3.1 (some libraries have > changed > >>>> from 3.0) and there are a number of bugs and feature requests > building up > >>>> that I've been ignoring. I have no incentive to do any of this so it > will > >>>> unfortunately just rot. If anyone wants to pick it up, let me know > (you > >>>> need a few free hours a week just to maintain it). I'm picking up > stumps > >>>> and moving on. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I also have the access rights for the openjfx Maven repo on Sonatype > >>>> (needed to deploy to Maven central). I imagine Sonatype would grant > this > >>>> access to others if you apply and make a case for it, but if anyone > wants > >>>> to do this let me know and I can notify sonatype to give you access > and > >>>> save you some hassles. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think Niklas has the RoboVM Maven Plugin sorted now and can do > >>>> enhancements on that but I'm sure if anyone wanted to help him out he > >>>> wouldn't say no. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>> Dan > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> I don’t understand why „all“ this people who needs JavaFX on > >>>> iOS/Android does not tell it Oracles management. And I don’t > understand why > >>>> all this people use their time to develop all this demos and Rasp.PI > stuff. > >>>> Who needs it? Why don’t we develop base stuff like iOS skins, Android > >>>> skins, iOS/Android widgets, RoboVM for Android, RoboVM using OpenJDK, > … I > >>>> really love useful stuff like the „JavaFX maven plugin“ or the > „AquaFX“ > >>>> project. That kind of development we need! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best, > >>>>>> Tobi > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 08:50 schrieb Felix Bembrick < > >>>> felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> No, you are *not* the only one. We *all* need it. In fact, > without it > >>>> happening soon, JavaFX is already dead. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But let's not give up yet. Perhaps it's closer than we know. I am > a > >>>> glass half full kinda guy :-) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 30 Sep 2013, at 16:40, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I suppose „legal reasons“…. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> For me it’s very frustrating to see every year the same procedure: > >>>> JavaFX-iOS/Android related tracks were canceled - „nerd“ stuff like > >>>> Rasp.PI, DukePad & Co were announced. Maybe I’m really the only one > who > >>>> needs JavaFX on mobile to use JavaFX on desktop as well… :( > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Am 29.09.2013 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Martin <j...@reportmill.com > >: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> It seems the JFX on iOS/Android were cancelled at the last > moment. I > >>>> tried to keep expectations low this year, but I admit I harbored > secret > >>>> hopes based on those sessions (a few embarrassingly optimistic > >>>> conversations with clients notwithstanding). > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Last week Tomas offered this: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> about cancelled sessions please contact Mr. JavaOne > >>>> stephen.c...@oracle.com I believe he will give satisfactory answer. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I'd like to take him up on that satisfactory offer. Also, can we > run > >>>> the name "DukePad" by marketing again? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> :-) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> jeff > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 29, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Daniel Zwolenski < > zon...@gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> The sessions aren't up yet from the looks of it. It would be > great > >>>> to get an overall roundup of any new announcements or directions in > any > >>>> case. Given this is the developer community network it would make > sense in > >>>> my mind to highlight stuff like that in here. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> For me, I'd love it if someone could quickly sum up any > >>>> announcements or sessions made about JavaFX for iOS, Android or in the > >>>> deployment space? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> What happened at the sessions Tobi highlighted before ( > >>>> http://blog.software4java.com/?p=97), did anyone go to these and > able to > >>>> give us some info? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2013, at 7:07 AM, Richard Bair < > richard.b...@oracle.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The sessions, I think, are all being uploaded to Parley's ( > >>>> http://www.parleys.com), although I don't see any content there yet > (not > >>>> sure how long it will take them to post-process, but usually it is > pretty > >>>> fast). > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Richard > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Daniel Zwolenski < > zon...@gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone done or seen any good roundups (text or video) of > the > >>>> JavaOne sessions relating to javafx? > >> > >
