The problem is the technology (no iOS/Android support) AND politics (Oracle doesn’t speak to the community)
Am 30.09.2013 um 20:09 schrieb Felix Bembrick <felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: > @Matthias, no, I am not kidding. Put your faith in the technology, not the > politics. > >> On 30 Sep 2013, at 22:03, Matthias Hänel <hae...@ultramixer.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without >> choking on it. Sure there >> are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy >> over and over again about >> the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we >> have a running bussiness >> where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. >> >> This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an >> active member of this community. >> He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the >> counterpart by managing the >> backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. >> Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal >> workshops for the developers >> to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This >> summer we focused our development >> on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning >> APIs and fixing JNI for java8. >> >> Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our >> fellow developers has been >> more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream >> "code-once-run-anywhere" comes true. The closer >> JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the >> more we got fed up over here. >> As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had >> been held. Just to summarize >> our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is >> investment of money and time on >> one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future >> technology. >> >> >> I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they >> appear over here. >> >> What did we heard over here from JavaOne? >> >> 1. JavaFX is still in development >> 2. Dukepad is released >> 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup >> (4. Javafx runs in a browser) >> >> >> I'll start at the bottom: >> >> (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript >> and web technologies as well. >> This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere >> applies but all tough real world >> applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and >> won't be cross platform in the near future.) >> >> 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. >> I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the >> world. I don't speak only about JavaFX, >> there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much >> here. >> >> 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, >> hacking firmware and much cool stuff >> in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded >> when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle >> with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting >> angry to see a 100 men powered development >> team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would >> be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo >> on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word >> about iOS, Android, Windows8. >> Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like >> this? I am really sure non of the major >> hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since >> Android is also free to us and is >> much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is >> that Oracle comes up with their own >> iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision >> make no sense to me. >> >> 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of >> today it looks like a major development for >> years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just a >> very big shiny demo. >> >> short history summarize: >> ------------------------ >> 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 >> couldn't really convince due to an strange way >> of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so JavaFX2 >> was create. The software design is outstanding >> and the potential is not even comparable from my point of view. Well, it was >> already time to look at the other platforms. >> 2012 it was announced (but canceled) to run on iOS/Android and now 2013 it >> was announced again (but canceled). >> From our current point of view it looks like we just have to use the already >> developed parts on desktop and for mobile >> we will have to start a complete new development branch. This will work for >> a short time but in the long term we'll >> probably step back from JavaFX and even Java and develop our own abstraction >> layer. This is sad and costs a lot of time >> that we would need to build our real products. >> >> >> To make it clear. Everytime I read arm-build I think there is further >> development in the right direction, but wrong >> it's still the same linux-arm-build. We don't need an arm build for javafx. >> We need an iOS-build, an Android-build >> and a Windows-build for the jre and javafx. Don't get me wrong you can >> prototype where ever you want even on Pi, but >> don't forget to deploy to a platform of importance. >> >> >> >> One more thing: >> --------------- >> To be honest ADF is kind of a myth to me. I see some use cases for a >> technology like this but not many. It's always >> the same lame banking software. >> Okay, ADF is a really easy to use in business software (banking,insurance >> and so on) and very small and easy projects on the other side. >> If a customer has a little more demand on new technologies you'll be lost >> with ADF, then comes JavaFX in the game. >> Porting from ADF to JavaFX should be that hard, but you cannot deploy it on >> the same platforms like ADF. There is a gap >> in the portfolio from my point of view. >> >> >> >> >> these are my 2 cents >> Matthias >> >> >> >> >> >>> Am 30.09.2013 um 12:13 schrieb Felix Bembrick <felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: >>> >>> Hey, I am trying to hose-down the political talk! I encourage everyone to >>> take a deep breath and focus on the many positives of the awesome >>> technology that is JavaFX :-) >>> >>> >>>> On 30 September 2013 20:03, Hervé Girod <herve.gi...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> It's not the place to talk politics here. If you want to channel your >>>> frustration, do it in your blog if you have one. >>>> >>>> Hervé >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On 30 sept. 2013, at 11:14, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I absolutely agree Daniel. I opened a very important bug reporting >>>> concerning JFX performance on iPhone which currently prevents using JavaFX >>>> (and RoboVM) to build apps for the iPhone ( >>>> https://javafx-jira.kenai.com/browse/RT-31453) this bug report is open >>>> since 3(!) month! How shall the community build things for iOS if a very >>>> base feature (bug) is not fixed by Oracles core team??? It’s a very bad >>>> sign for engaged developers outside Oracle! >>>>> >>>>> So maybe we should say good by to the legacy of SUN and use web >>>> technologies like JQuery, ExtJS, … with real community power and without an >>>> US company who sees only money and legal issues. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe Larry loves to spend millions of dollars to win a boat race and >>>> develop experimental „iPads“ rather then spend their time and money to >>>> develop a technology with could be the base for ALL products, on Desktop, >>>> embedded space, mobile, watches, … >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Tobi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 10:39 schrieb Daniel Zwolenski <zon...@gmail.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>> The lack of information on iOS/Android is a major bummer, but this also >>>> highlights a deeper problem here. >>>>>> >>>>>> We have a situation where Oracle won't talk to this community because >>>> the topic is important, it's too big a game changer for them to comment on. >>>> It's tied in with share prices, and market strategies. >>>>>> >>>>>> So won't that be the case for anything *important* going forward? We >>>> "community" members are outsiders and very lowly ranked, well below "real" >>>> customers and even below random punters from the media. There's not even a >>>> way for us to rank bugs and get them attention (even if we provide fixes!). >>>>>> >>>>>> What kind of community can this ever be if anything important can't be >>>> discussed here before it's locked in, because it risks Oracle giving up a >>>> commercial edge? Is this then a community only for discussing our favourite >>>> method names for the API and pointing out that an enum constant is missing? >>>>>> >>>>>> I can't see any way that this forum provides any significant >>>> contributions back to the platform - the occasional bug fix at best. JIRA >>>> is fine for discussing bugs, method names and little things like that. Any >>>> of the real community initiatives are run completely separate to this forum >>>> because Oracle doesn't want anything to do with them, and all the >>>> significant platform work takes place behind Oracle's closed doors and we >>>> only hear about it after it's a done deal. >>>>>> >>>>>> From where I'm standing, the Oracle community concept is fundamentally >>>> flawed, and the root cause is that Oracle just don't get how to interact >>>> with a community. You want to use us but you're not very good at it, you're >>>> not trying to improve (you don't think there's a problem) and ultimately >>>> Oracle's culture won't let you do it properly anyway. The current approach >>>> is a little like a car salesman trying to be your Facebook "friend". >>>>>> >>>>>> All the initiatives I got involved with through this forum have gone >>>> nowhere - deployment (auto updating), the early Maven deployment work >>>> (which Richard asked for), the tower defender game (which Richard asked >>>> for), the jfx browser (which Richard asked for), even stuff as simple as >>>> JIRA dashboards (which Richard again asked for). >>>>>> >>>>>> All these hit points where they needed Oracle to do their part of it >>>> and then just stalled and then died. This community could have fostered a >>>> lot of tools and efforts, and really propelled JFX into the bigger dev >>>> community, but instead, for me, it has been a constant source of stress and >>>> dissatisfaction, a hinderance and a hurdle. All pain, no gain. >>>>>> >>>>>> The only initiatives I actually made work were the JavaFX Maven plugin >>>> and the RoboVM Maven plugin. With both of these I made a conscious decision >>>> to not involve this forum or Oracle. I decided to cludge around platform >>>> shortcomings, rather than work with Oracle to fix it (5 minute fixes would >>>> have saved me days of work). >>>>>> >>>>>> That was the only way I could make these initiatives succeed since this >>>> forum is a hinderance to contributing. It gives a false sense that Oracle >>>> is listening and actively supporting the community. To anyone out there >>>> wanting to do something in JFX tool space, I'd say start by leaving this >>>> forum and working out what you can do without any access to the Oracle >>>> guys, even if you make your own code contributions to the platform. Assume >>>> you're an outsider - the cavalry is not coming, you're on your own. >>>>>> >>>>>> Given all that I'm walking away from this forum. I was waiting to hear >>>> about the iOS/Android stuff first, but really even if they did announce >>>> anything, it would be a long shot at best (untested, low resources, lack of >>>> solid direction and most likely tied in with some Oracle ADF garbage or >>>> similar). The uncertainty created by Oracle's mixed messages also killed >>>> all momentum on the community RoboVM work. Meanwhile web based stuff is >>>> getting stronger, cleaner and better tool support at an exponential rate, >>>> including in the mobile space. >>>>>> >>>>>> If JavaFX one day actually provides a usable platform for non-Oracle >>>> entrenched customers, and the developer world notices, I'll certainly >>>> consider it. I reckon I'll hear about that through the usual tech media >>>> channels first, rather than through here though. As Oracle themselves >>>> pointed out at the 2012 JavaOne session the smart money is on web based >>>> stuff (check out backbone.js and marionette.js for a desktop-like coding >>>> experience, not bad and will get better faster than JFX improves). >>>>>> >>>>>> On that note, the JavaFX Maven plugin is about to go into decay mode. >>>> It needs to be updated to work on Maven 3.1 (some libraries have changed >>>> from 3.0) and there are a number of bugs and feature requests building up >>>> that I've been ignoring. I have no incentive to do any of this so it will >>>> unfortunately just rot. If anyone wants to pick it up, let me know (you >>>> need a few free hours a week just to maintain it). I'm picking up stumps >>>> and moving on. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also have the access rights for the openjfx Maven repo on Sonatype >>>> (needed to deploy to Maven central). I imagine Sonatype would grant this >>>> access to others if you apply and make a case for it, but if anyone wants >>>> to do this let me know and I can notify sonatype to give you access and >>>> save you some hassles. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think Niklas has the RoboVM Maven Plugin sorted now and can do >>>> enhancements on that but I'm sure if anyone wanted to help him out he >>>> wouldn't say no. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> I don’t understand why „all“ this people who needs JavaFX on >>>> iOS/Android does not tell it Oracles management. And I don’t understand why >>>> all this people use their time to develop all this demos and Rasp.PI stuff. >>>> Who needs it? Why don’t we develop base stuff like iOS skins, Android >>>> skins, iOS/Android widgets, RoboVM for Android, RoboVM using OpenJDK, … I >>>> really love useful stuff like the „JavaFX maven plugin“ or the „AquaFX“ >>>> project. That kind of development we need! >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Tobi >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 08:50 schrieb Felix Bembrick < >>>> felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, you are *not* the only one. We *all* need it. In fact, without it >>>> happening soon, JavaFX is already dead. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But let's not give up yet. Perhaps it's closer than we know. I am a >>>> glass half full kinda guy :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 30 Sep 2013, at 16:40, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I suppose „legal reasons“…. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For me it’s very frustrating to see every year the same procedure: >>>> JavaFX-iOS/Android related tracks were canceled - „nerd“ stuff like >>>> Rasp.PI, DukePad & Co were announced. Maybe I’m really the only one who >>>> needs JavaFX on mobile to use JavaFX on desktop as well… :( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Am 29.09.2013 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Martin <j...@reportmill.com>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It seems the JFX on iOS/Android were cancelled at the last moment. I >>>> tried to keep expectations low this year, but I admit I harbored secret >>>> hopes based on those sessions (a few embarrassingly optimistic >>>> conversations with clients notwithstanding). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Last week Tomas offered this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> about cancelled sessions please contact Mr. JavaOne >>>> stephen.c...@oracle.com I believe he will give satisfactory answer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd like to take him up on that satisfactory offer. Also, can we run >>>> the name "DukePad" by marketing again? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> :-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> jeff >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 29, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Daniel Zwolenski <zon...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The sessions aren't up yet from the looks of it. It would be great >>>> to get an overall roundup of any new announcements or directions in any >>>> case. Given this is the developer community network it would make sense in >>>> my mind to highlight stuff like that in here. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For me, I'd love it if someone could quickly sum up any >>>> announcements or sessions made about JavaFX for iOS, Android or in the >>>> deployment space? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What happened at the sessions Tobi highlighted before ( >>>> http://blog.software4java.com/?p=97), did anyone go to these and able to >>>> give us some info? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2013, at 7:07 AM, Richard Bair <richard.b...@oracle.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The sessions, I think, are all being uploaded to Parley's ( >>>> http://www.parleys.com), although I don't see any content there yet (not >>>> sure how long it will take them to post-process, but usually it is pretty >>>> fast). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Richard >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Daniel Zwolenski <zon...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone done or seen any good roundups (text or video) of the >>>> JavaOne sessions relating to javafx? >>
