Android UI framework is a mess... Sent from my iPhone
> On 30 sept. 2013, at 18:27, John Hendrikx <hj...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > >> On 30/09/2013 17:38, Anton Epple wrote: >> Hi guys, >> >> I understand your frustration about the cancelled sessions, and I share it. >> But when I talk to the engineers and see their posts here, they're clearly >> interested in the same stuff we'd like to see in JavaFX. I guess nobody was >> more frustrated that these sessions were cancelled than the engineers who >> submitted them. If you want to talk about something new and exiting you will >> have to let some company lawyers approve it. This takes some time. My guess >> is, that the approval for the talks might not have arrived in time. > To be honest, it is likely JavaFX already missed its window to become > relevant on Android and iOS. These platforms are not waiting for anyone and > are being aggressively pushed into all kinds of new areas (console gaming, > entertainment hubs, general productivity, etc). Oracle should count itself > lucky that Google even used a Java-like language for its platform or they'd > stand no chance at all anymore in this space. There are already dozens of > frameworks that work with Dalvik that compete in atleast part of the same > space as JavaFX -- many of them cross platform. Just one of these needs to > be actively pushed by a big name and gone is your opportunity. > > These markets donot move at the snails pace that lawyers and courts move. > Limiting yourself to the speed of your legal department is a guaranteed way > to become irrelevant. > > My 2 cents > --John > >> >> If I was right, and the reason for the talks being removed are just of >> temporary nature, then I guess the best strategy now is to "keep calm and >> carry on" for a bit. >> >> Regards >> >> --Toni >> >> P.s.: @Matthias: >> Regarding your thoughts about JavaFX in a browser: >> - WORA matters - I think it's the whole point that started this discussion. >> - Using Cordova you can package your app as a native app. So you've got a >> working solution, which is admittedly not feature complete and not usable >> for every application, but much better than nothing. >> - JavaScript is a huge problem as it leads to ugly unmaintainable code. >> Right now there are tons of projects desperately trying to solve that issue >> (GWT, typescript, ...). bck2brwsr is one of the solutions. It enables you to >> write clean Java(FX) code and still run in the browser without the need to >> install any plugin. So bck2brwsr solves a real world problem. That's why it >> matters. >> >> >> >> >>> Am 30.09.2013 um 14:03 schrieb Matthias Hänel<hae...@ultramixer.com>: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without >>> choking on it. Sure there >>> are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be >>> happy over and over again about >>> the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we >>> have a running bussiness >>> where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology. >>> >>> This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an >>> active member of this community. >>> He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the >>> counterpart by managing the >>> backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. >>> Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal >>> workshops for the developers >>> to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This >>> summer we focused our development >>> on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning >>> APIs and fixing JNI for java8. >>> >>> Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to >>> our fellow developers has been >>> more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream >>> "code-once-run-anywhere" comes true. The closer >>> JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the >>> more we got fed up over here. >>> As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had >>> been held. Just to summarize >>> our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is >>> investment of money and time on >>> one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future >>> technology. >>> >>> >>> I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how >>> they appear over here. >>> >>> What did we heard over here from JavaOne? >>> >>> 1. JavaFX is still in development >>> 2. Dukepad is released >>> 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup >>> (4. Javafx runs in a browser) >>> >>> >>> I'll start at the bottom: >>> >>> (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript >>> and web technologies as well. >>> This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere >>> applies but all tough real world >>> applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and >>> won't be cross platform in the near future.) >>> >>> 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. >>> I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the >>> world. I don't speak only about JavaFX, >>> there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much >>> here. >>> >>> 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, >>> hacking firmware and much cool stuff >>> in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded >>> when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle >>> with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting >>> angry to see a 100 men powered development >>> team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would >>> be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo >>> on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No >>> word about iOS, Android, Windows8. >>> Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like >>> this? I am really sure non of the major >>> hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon >>> since Android is also free to us and is >>> much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is >>> that Oracle comes up with their own >>> iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this >>> decision make no sense to me. >>> >>> 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of >>> today it looks like a major development for >>> years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just a >>> very big shiny demo. >>> >>> short history summarize: >>> ------------------------ >>> 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 >>> couldn't really convince due to an strange way >>> of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so JavaFX2 >>> was create. The software design is outstanding >>> and the potential is not even comparable from my point of view. Well, it >>> was already time to look at the other platforms. >>> 2012 it was announced (but canceled) to run on iOS/Android and now 2013 it >>> was announced again (but canceled). >>> From our current point of view it looks like we just have to use the >>> already developed parts on desktop and for mobile >>> we will have to start a complete new development branch. This will work for >>> a short time but in the long term we'll >>> probably step back from JavaFX and even Java and develop our own >>> abstraction layer. This is sad and costs a lot of time >>> that we would need to build our real products. >>> >>> >>> To make it clear. Everytime I read arm-build I think there is further >>> development in the right direction, but wrong >>> it's still the same linux-arm-build. We don't need an arm build for javafx. >>> We need an iOS-build, an Android-build >>> and a Windows-build for the jre and javafx. Don't get me wrong you can >>> prototype where ever you want even on Pi, but >>> don't forget to deploy to a platform of importance. >>> >>> >>> >>> One more thing: >>> --------------- >>> To be honest ADF is kind of a myth to me. I see some use cases for a >>> technology like this but not many. It's always >>> the same lame banking software. >>> Okay, ADF is a really easy to use in business software (banking,insurance >>> and so on) and very small and easy projects on the other side. >>> If a customer has a little more demand on new technologies you'll be lost >>> with ADF, then comes JavaFX in the game. >>> Porting from ADF to JavaFX should be that hard, but you cannot deploy it on >>> the same platforms like ADF. There is a gap >>> in the portfolio from my point of view. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> these are my 2 cents >>> Matthias >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 12:13 schrieb Felix Bembrick<felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: >>>> >>>> Hey, I am trying to hose-down the political talk! I encourage everyone to >>>> take a deep breath and focus on the many positives of the awesome >>>> technology that is JavaFX :-) >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 30 September 2013 20:03, Hervé Girod<herve.gi...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It's not the place to talk politics here. If you want to channel your >>>>> frustration, do it in your blog if you have one. >>>>> >>>>> Hervé >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On 30 sept. 2013, at 11:14, Tobias Bley<t...@ultramixer.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I absolutely agree Daniel. I opened a very important bug reporting >>>>> concerning JFX performance on iPhone which currently prevents using JavaFX >>>>> (and RoboVM) to build apps for the iPhone ( >>>>> https://javafx-jira.kenai.com/browse/RT-31453) this bug report is open >>>>> since 3(!) month! How shall the community build things for iOS if a very >>>>> base feature (bug) is not fixed by Oracles core team??? It’s a very bad >>>>> sign for engaged developers outside Oracle! >>>>>> So maybe we should say good by to the legacy of SUN and use web >>>>> technologies like JQuery, ExtJS, … with real community power and without >>>>> an >>>>> US company who sees only money and legal issues. >>>>>> Maybe Larry loves to spend millions of dollars to win a boat race and >>>>> develop experimental „iPads“ rather then spend their time and money to >>>>> develop a technology with could be the base for ALL products, on Desktop, >>>>> embedded space, mobile, watches, … >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Tobi >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 10:39 schrieb Daniel Zwolenski<zon...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The lack of information on iOS/Android is a major bummer, but this also >>>>> highlights a deeper problem here. >>>>>>> We have a situation where Oracle won't talk to this community because >>>>> the topic is important, it's too big a game changer for them to comment >>>>> on. >>>>> It's tied in with share prices, and market strategies. >>>>>>> So won't that be the case for anything *important* going forward? We >>>>> "community" members are outsiders and very lowly ranked, well below "real" >>>>> customers and even below random punters from the media. There's not even a >>>>> way for us to rank bugs and get them attention (even if we provide >>>>> fixes!). >>>>>>> What kind of community can this ever be if anything important can't be >>>>> discussed here before it's locked in, because it risks Oracle giving up a >>>>> commercial edge? Is this then a community only for discussing our >>>>> favourite >>>>> method names for the API and pointing out that an enum constant is >>>>> missing? >>>>>>> I can't see any way that this forum provides any significant >>>>> contributions back to the platform - the occasional bug fix at best. JIRA >>>>> is fine for discussing bugs, method names and little things like that. Any >>>>> of the real community initiatives are run completely separate to this >>>>> forum >>>>> because Oracle doesn't want anything to do with them, and all the >>>>> significant platform work takes place behind Oracle's closed doors and we >>>>> only hear about it after it's a done deal. >>>>>>> From where I'm standing, the Oracle community concept is fundamentally >>>>> flawed, and the root cause is that Oracle just don't get how to interact >>>>> with a community. You want to use us but you're not very good at it, >>>>> you're >>>>> not trying to improve (you don't think there's a problem) and ultimately >>>>> Oracle's culture won't let you do it properly anyway. The current approach >>>>> is a little like a car salesman trying to be your Facebook "friend". >>>>>>> All the initiatives I got involved with through this forum have gone >>>>> nowhere - deployment (auto updating), the early Maven deployment work >>>>> (which Richard asked for), the tower defender game (which Richard asked >>>>> for), the jfx browser (which Richard asked for), even stuff as simple as >>>>> JIRA dashboards (which Richard again asked for). >>>>>>> All these hit points where they needed Oracle to do their part of it >>>>> and then just stalled and then died. This community could have fostered a >>>>> lot of tools and efforts, and really propelled JFX into the bigger dev >>>>> community, but instead, for me, it has been a constant source of stress >>>>> and >>>>> dissatisfaction, a hinderance and a hurdle. All pain, no gain. >>>>>>> The only initiatives I actually made work were the JavaFX Maven plugin >>>>> and the RoboVM Maven plugin. With both of these I made a conscious >>>>> decision >>>>> to not involve this forum or Oracle. I decided to cludge around platform >>>>> shortcomings, rather than work with Oracle to fix it (5 minute fixes would >>>>> have saved me days of work). >>>>>>> That was the only way I could make these initiatives succeed since this >>>>> forum is a hinderance to contributing. It gives a false sense that Oracle >>>>> is listening and actively supporting the community. To anyone out there >>>>> wanting to do something in JFX tool space, I'd say start by leaving this >>>>> forum and working out what you can do without any access to the Oracle >>>>> guys, even if you make your own code contributions to the platform. Assume >>>>> you're an outsider - the cavalry is not coming, you're on your own. >>>>>>> Given all that I'm walking away from this forum. I was waiting to hear >>>>> about the iOS/Android stuff first, but really even if they did announce >>>>> anything, it would be a long shot at best (untested, low resources, lack >>>>> of >>>>> solid direction and most likely tied in with some Oracle ADF garbage or >>>>> similar). The uncertainty created by Oracle's mixed messages also killed >>>>> all momentum on the community RoboVM work. Meanwhile web based stuff is >>>>> getting stronger, cleaner and better tool support at an exponential rate, >>>>> including in the mobile space. >>>>>>> If JavaFX one day actually provides a usable platform for non-Oracle >>>>> entrenched customers, and the developer world notices, I'll certainly >>>>> consider it. I reckon I'll hear about that through the usual tech media >>>>> channels first, rather than through here though. As Oracle themselves >>>>> pointed out at the 2012 JavaOne session the smart money is on web based >>>>> stuff (check out backbone.js and marionette.js for a desktop-like coding >>>>> experience, not bad and will get better faster than JFX improves). >>>>>>> On that note, the JavaFX Maven plugin is about to go into decay mode. >>>>> It needs to be updated to work on Maven 3.1 (some libraries have changed >>>>> from 3.0) and there are a number of bugs and feature requests building up >>>>> that I've been ignoring. I have no incentive to do any of this so it will >>>>> unfortunately just rot. If anyone wants to pick it up, let me know (you >>>>> need a few free hours a week just to maintain it). I'm picking up stumps >>>>> and moving on. >>>>>>> I also have the access rights for the openjfx Maven repo on Sonatype >>>>> (needed to deploy to Maven central). I imagine Sonatype would grant this >>>>> access to others if you apply and make a case for it, but if anyone wants >>>>> to do this let me know and I can notify sonatype to give you access and >>>>> save you some hassles. >>>>>>> I think Niklas has the RoboVM Maven Plugin sorted now and can do >>>>> enhancements on that but I'm sure if anyone wanted to help him out he >>>>> wouldn't say no. >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Dan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Tobias Bley<t...@ultramixer.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I don’t understand why „all“ this people who needs JavaFX on >>>>> iOS/Android does not tell it Oracles management. And I don’t understand >>>>> why >>>>> all this people use their time to develop all this demos and Rasp.PI >>>>> stuff. >>>>> Who needs it? Why don’t we develop base stuff like iOS skins, Android >>>>> skins, iOS/Android widgets, RoboVM for Android, RoboVM using OpenJDK, … I >>>>> really love useful stuff like the „JavaFX maven plugin“ or the „AquaFX“ >>>>> project. That kind of development we need! >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Tobi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 08:50 schrieb Felix Bembrick< >>>>> felix.bembr...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>> No, you are *not* the only one. We *all* need it. In fact, without it >>>>> happening soon, JavaFX is already dead. >>>>>>>> But let's not give up yet. Perhaps it's closer than we know. I am a >>>>> glass half full kinda guy :-) >>>>>>>>> On 30 Sep 2013, at 16:40, Tobias Bley<t...@ultramixer.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I suppose „legal reasons“…. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For me it’s very frustrating to see every year the same procedure: >>>>> JavaFX-iOS/Android related tracks were canceled - „nerd“ stuff like >>>>> Rasp.PI, DukePad& Co were announced. Maybe I’m really the only one who >>>>> needs JavaFX on mobile to use JavaFX on desktop as well… :( >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Am 29.09.2013 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Martin<j...@reportmill.com>: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It seems the JFX on iOS/Android were cancelled at the last moment. I >>>>> tried to keep expectations low this year, but I admit I harbored secret >>>>> hopes based on those sessions (a few embarrassingly optimistic >>>>> conversations with clients notwithstanding). >>>>>>>>>> Last week Tomas offered this: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> about cancelled sessions please contact Mr. JavaOne >>>>> stephen.c...@oracle.com I believe he will give satisfactory answer. >>>>>>>>>> I'd like to take him up on that satisfactory offer. Also, can we run >>>>> the name "DukePad" by marketing again? >>>>>>>>>> :-) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> jeff >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 29, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Daniel Zwolenski<zon...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> The sessions aren't up yet from the looks of it. It would be great >>>>> to get an overall roundup of any new announcements or directions in any >>>>> case. Given this is the developer community network it would make sense in >>>>> my mind to highlight stuff like that in here. >>>>>>>>>>> For me, I'd love it if someone could quickly sum up any >>>>> announcements or sessions made about JavaFX for iOS, Android or in the >>>>> deployment space? >>>>>>>>>>> What happened at the sessions Tobi highlighted before ( >>>>> http://blog.software4java.com/?p=97), did anyone go to these and able to >>>>> give us some info? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2013, at 7:07 AM, Richard Bair<richard.b...@oracle.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> The sessions, I think, are all being uploaded to Parley's ( >>>>> http://www.parleys.com), although I don't see any content there yet (not >>>>> sure how long it will take them to post-process, but usually it is pretty >>>>> fast). >>>>>>>>>>>> Richard >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Daniel Zwolenski<zon...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone done or seen any good roundups (text or video) of the >>>>> JavaOne sessions relating to javafx? >
