Mark,
Just a couple of corrections: I have heard no 'rage' from any core dev over the concept of an "OpenCurrency" project. On the contrary, that is what we want to see happen, preferably several currency projects targeting different usage models and catering for differing audiences. Whether or not currency management hosted by the core repository is pivotal for the success of OpenSim or not is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, if that would be the case, that would be a sad prospect for OpenSim indeed. Managing an economic points system is no more central to OpenSim than it is for the Apache web server. It might be pivotal for certain implementations based on OpenSim, like it would be for certain e-commerce sites running on Apache, but not for OpenSim itself. The OpenSim core devs has repeatedly stated that we are willing to add whatever reasonable hooks any currency module would reasonably need into the core. Please open mantis issues and attach your patches, and we'll review them like any other patch. I fail to see the need to 'fork' the entire code base over this kind of issue. The Rex team forked before the OpenSim core were even aware of them. The issue was whether to re-incorporate their codebase into core, something that was decided against in the end. From what I can see, both projects have continued to run in parallel just fine, each free to pursue their specific development goals. There has been mailings before pointing to existing currency module code bases. A friendly suggestion though; it's probably not the best way to start your fledgling currency project passing remarks discrediting core devs and their motifs. Best regards, /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Mark Malewski Sent: den 21 juli 2009 12:18 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Jason/Colin/Rock/Aldon, I completely agree with your stance on having a virtual currency system/Karma system (whether it is or is not based on actual real-world currency). Companies like Zynga that do online gaming, have "virtual currencies" and things such as "virtual money" and "Godfather points" in their Mafia Wars games, and all of their other various games. Yes, I agree that there needs to be some form of "virtual currency" or points system. There is no argument concerning "virtual currency" as being unsecure, or inappropriate or any form of liability. I'm not saying that OpenSim core needs to add a gateway to secure e-commerce (such as PayPal) but there are lots of way to implement secure commerce. First off, the "points" in the game, are nothing more than that. They are just points. I've lost items (through "gifting") before on other online games, and it's really no big deal. Tech support normally "makes things right". But this is not a liability issue as much as this seems to be a "money making" issue. There seem to be some developers (in the core dev team) that may or may not want to offer their OWN e-commerce system (as a service/money making opportunity). So I can understand their rage in the concept of someone creating an "OpenCurrency" project, because they may feel that it's a loss of opportunity for them to sell a product (if someone gives it away for free, as in air). Ultimately I feel that a points/virtual currency system is vital to OpenSim's success. I believe e-commerce is an important part of Virtual World development, just as e-commerce is an important part of the web. Trying to have a virtual world without any form of e-commerce is similar to having an internet without any form of e-commerce. I've seen payment gateways for virtual worlds dating all the way back to 1996 (Active Worlds) and designing the core (securely) from the ground up, so that it could handle a virtual "points" system would seem to make sense. You don't need to build a mamoth of secure servers, as PayPal already does much of that for you. It would seem that just a simple module that would work hand in hand with PayPal's API would suffice. Linden dollars are nothing more than a points system. Whether you choose to call it Karma points, or currency, or virtual dollars, whatever the case... it's still points. It's NOT real money, it's NOT real cash, it's just points. It would seem to make sense to create a separate OpenCurrency project as Aldon suggested, as this seems to be an EXTREMELY important piece of the OpenSim project. Designing a virtual world system (like OpenSim) without any form of points systems (Karma, Currency, or whatever you wish to call it) would be similar to designing a computer without a monitor, keyboard or mouse. I understand the concept of having a 3D Virtual Chatroom (for educational purposes and online learning) but 3D portals (such as Linden's) where people come together, talk, chat, play online games, and engage in trading, etc. some form of points or commerce system is critical. If Core doesn't want to take part in the project (because they have their own vested interests in their own personal ventures) then it may be in the best interests of the Open Source Community to start a separate Open Source "OpenCurrency" project, that is a separate entity from Core, and it seems completely stupid to have to branch off and create a separate fork, but if this is what the Core Devs want is a separate fork, then so be it. RealXtend has had to fork, and it seems to hurt the OpenSource project as a whole, because the forks eventually run independently of one another. It would seem to make more sense to just make the "OpenCurrency" project a part of OpenSim core (as a module) that can easily be enabled/disabled by just installing the module, and enabling/disabling a flag in the OpenSim.ini configuration file. Something that will just allow the transfer of points between users in the virtual world. I believe something as simple as OS$ (open sim points, or open sim virtual dollars) would be sufficient, similar to Linden's implementation. "I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year." Was not aware of that, but that's very good to know. It would be good to create a separate "OpenCurrency" project, and if it's something that the core OpenSim developers don't wish to take part in, then maybe it can be something that can be developed and added to the RealXtend module and the RealXtend crew has done a fine job of adding additional features, but either way we should be able to create a separate "OpenCurrency" project independent of the OpenSim project, and possibly even work hand in hand with the RealXtend developers, as a virtual currency and/or virtual point system really would be crucial in online gaming, and virtual social networks (the ability to exchange & transfer points, and objects/items between users). It would seem that Core Dev are being very narrow (and closed) minded concerning the idea of a points/karma system, but I would love to see an OpenCurrency project started by a separate group, and something that can easily be added (as a free module) to the OpenSim core. >I will, if you can prove you know enough about computer security > and writing secure code. I'm not a developer, I'm a computer/network security engineer but I could at least help with alpha/beta testing, and work on attacks, vulnerability testing and security audits if need be (so that we can work on improving the product). I really do think that an "OpenCurrency" project would be great for the OpenSim Community (and probably the number one, and most requested feature for OpenSim). I'd be more than happy to join in on helping with the "OpenCurrency" project in any way that I can (such as technical writing, WIKI documentation, tutorials, and vulnerability/alpha/beta testing). The key point is to view OpenSim as a "Virtual Gaming Platform" and without some form of points or Karma system, it really loses out as a real interactive community network platform, and turns into a "3D Chatroom" which has been done so many times before. What made SL so different, was the ability to trade goods, items, and even points between users. This is a very important aspect of Virtual Worlds, and it seems a key piece that core devs want to leave out. I guess the only solution is to create and form a separate OpenCurrency project that is independent of the OpenSim project (similar to RealXtend) and just work independently of the Core Devs on an "OpenCurrency" project. As I stated previously, I'd be more than willing to help in this venture. It seems that Melanie already has some work/implementation that she has already started, maybe we can start an OpenSource "OpenCurrency" project and build upon some of what Mel has already done, or work on building something similar to what SL has done (using PayPal API's as a gateway, and using Paypal to handle all the secure financial transactions). This way the OpenCurrency server simply holds the points/karma as just an item/object in the asset server? It would seem to make sense to just have a currency value assigned to users. If objects can be gifted between users (and not stolen) then I can't imagine the problem with being unable to gift points between users. Some people like to act like the sky is falling, and attempt to equate "points=cash" which they do not. Many online games use a points system, including Zynga, and SL. A small handful of devs want to act like the sky is falling anytime you mention anything about a points system, but the code is still in the Alpha stages, and this would be the best time to work on designing a module (from the ground up) so that OpenSim could be made as a secure platform. It's foolish to develop something without having the vision to make it secure, and something that is expandable, and something that can easily accept a virtual points/karma system. Games such as "Mafia Wars" (that use virtual points as part of the gaming experience) have well over 16.5+ Million active users, with over 3.4 to 4 million active players each day. It would only make sense to include a points system as part of OpenSim, and doesn't make any sense at all to ignore such a key element in an online gaming or online virtual platform. Some region/world operators may choose not to enable it, but it still should be a part of core that could easily be enabled/disabled. If Core Devs don't want it to be a part of core, then we may just have to start a separate OpenSource "OpenCurrency" project. It may need to be a separate module, similar to what RealXtend is doing, but I'm more than willing to help with the effort in any way that I can. (Website development, Wiki documentation, technical writing, tutorials, alpha/beta testing, vulnerability & penetration testing, etc.) Mark MCSA/MCSE:Security/CCNA/CCDA/CCDP/CHFI/ECSA/LPT/Security+ On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Len Brown <lenwbr...@gmail.com> wrote: I still experience an occasional hiccup with the Second Life money system so i remain slightly wary of it. Since money transactions remain a very buggy and unreliable thing when it comes to virtual worlds, I've learned many new ways to make financial gains without any in-world monetary implementations at all. At present I am gradually leasing out 25 regions from my own servers. I simply request payment be made via PayPal within the first 7 days of each month and thus far I've not experienced any issues at all. Everyone seems very happy and I simplify things by only leasing out full regions rather than trying to divide them up and lease out portions of regions. While an in-world money system would at times be nice, and eventually will come into being through optional plugins, I am quite happy managing my virtual world properties through PayPal payments. - Len W. Brown On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, J Ross Nicoll <jrn2...@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote: I think this illustrates extremely well why most of the devs don't want to touch a money system. Making a proper monetary system means ensuring that transactions happen, or do not, you can't get 7 copies of the same transaction that then have to be unpicked by hand. I wouldn't be averse to writing a money module if I had time (so, not this year), but I'd want to do it properly so you can't get into this sort of mess... Len Brown wrote: > This reminds me of a situation I encountered in Second Life last > Autumn. I logged in on a Saturday morning and decided to sell a piece > of land I no longer needed. I set the asking price at 10,000 Lindens. > > Right about that time Linden Lad encountered a problem and began a > rolling restart of their servers. Somehow the money system got "stuck" > and when someone bought my land it did not register with the Linden Lab > servers. > > The result was that, over the course of the next 20 minutes 7 people > "bought" my land. When the dust settled I had one actual owner of my > land and 7 actual purchases. As you might imagine, a lot of people were > very angry that I got their Lindens and they got nothing in return. > > I communicated to them all and tried to explain the situation but most > called me a liar since "this never happened before. I then contacted > Linden Lab tech support (after waiting nearly an hour on hold) and was > told NOT to refund the Lindens as they would resolve the "glitch." > > After 24 hours and some very hostile people demanding their money back I > decided to go ahead and send each of them the 10,000 Lindens they gave > me. Almost a week later I logged in to find my account nearly 70,000 > Lindens overdrawn! -- The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland : No SC013532 _______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev _______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
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