Good point. You can run Orion for free for non commercial uses, Jboss/Tomcat
(www.jboss.org) for free, and the Unify engine for free with limited application
concurrency (www.unifyewave.com/). Given the price and quality of these servers,
students can then let their future employer know how to save big money. Ultra edit
(www.ultraedit.com) is my favorite editor, and it has a nice FTP program to hook into
Unix servers from windows, Ant (jakarta.apache.org) is excellent, and Tomcat
(jakarta.apache.org) has IBM, Sun, and Apache working on it. I like to move things
between Windows and Unix with CuteFTP (http://tucows.samarts.com).
I also like to thank the people of this list for the discussions of Oracle *I AS
vs. *I DB series. Because of it, I am now running Oracle *I DB with Iplanet 4.1
Enterprise in our production environment.
-----Original Message-----
From: Duffey, Kevin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 11:25 AM
To: Orion-Interest
Subject: RE: Any news from Orion yet??
I can not speak for Orion, but I can tell you that I have read many a thread
in this list and there are plenty of people knowledgeable about Orion.
However, I still lack the connection between Orion and EJB. Sure, it gives
you a platform to run EJB on, but I am not sure why someone must learn Orion
EJB, instead of just EJB. If you are looking for a FREE EJB application
server, there are a few around, JBoss being one of the best I have seen.
However, I don't believe you would need to pay Orion for the use of Orion in
a classroom. I could be wrong, but that doesn't sound like a production
environment to me. Orion only charges based on production licenses. Again..I
could be wrong and if I am I apologize. In that case, I would look at using
free alternatives that get the job done. Jboss appears to be a very capable
EJB application server, and I am sure Tomcat can provide a good enough
front-end for jsp/servlets to get the job done. Also, unless you are
teaching a specific tool (such as JBuilder) which is not what is indicated
in the original thread (teaching EJB on Orion), I see no reason why you
wouldn't teach them the "right" tools, being command line tools that get the
job done. There are many free IDE's that do nicely, and cheap ones too. I
personally use UltraEdit ($30) and ANT (Java make/script tool..free) that
allow me to quickly compile, jar and deploy a project with a single easy to
understand xml script file. My point is, why does it require a $3000 tool
for each person in the class, and a $1500 (by the way..that is very cheap
especially when you compare the costs to a cluster of WebLogic, WebSphere or
Jrun (or others) that can costs as much as $15K (or more) per CPU per
server) app server when you can teach them the EJB and the tools that get
the job done (that the fancy IDE's usually use anyways) for free? My focus
here is on the original post that said they want to teach EJB. There wasn't
any mention of teaching tools that deploy EJB into any specific app server.
I think the original post made it clear they want to instruct on EJB. If the
class is to teach EJB within Orion, then possibly teaching how to set up
Orion, deploy into it, etc is a good thing. If you took that approach, and
you bought several licenses at once (if they are required), the Orion team
may even give you a break on the price. As for why they don't respond..well,
I can't answer that.
Anyways..I hope the class goes well.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rabi Satter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 7:03 AM
> To: Orion-Interest
> Subject: RE: Any news from Orion yet??
>
>
> As a former trainer I can understand exactly what Kevin is
> trying to say.
> That is when you do training you need a platform for the
> students to learn.
> In the case of EJB you don't say gee here is how it should
> work and have a
> nice day. You say here is how it works and now lets have you build an
> example. The spec does not help you and your students build a
> "working"
> example. You need an app server.
>
> As for the cost at $1500 a pop per workstation and a typical
> training room
> of 15 workstations plus trainer workstation that is $24,000
> not including
> cost of hardware and other software to support training
> people on EJB like
> JBuilder. JBuilder Enterprise is $2999 and you can see that a
> training room
> can quickly become an expensive proposition without aid from
> the vendor. I
> have not even begun to add the cost of developing courseware and
> instructors.
>
> Regardless, what is more disheartening is the lack of
> response from Orion.
> Quite frankly the fast way to become the number one app server is by
> training people. Those people then become your main sales
> force and with
> little or no cost to the company.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Duffey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 1:41 AM
> To: Orion-Interest
> Subject: RE: RE: Any news from Orion yet??
>
>
> I am sorry, but I don't quite understand how training of EJB
> on Orion is any
> different than that of other platforms? You are trainging EJB, not the
> vendor application server. EJB is EJB, no matter what
> platform it runs on.
> If every vendor adhered to the spec as they should, an EJB
> will run on any
> app server.
>
> Also, are you providing an online service that teaches over
> the internet and
> you need Orion to run that site? Or do you have in-class
> instruction and
> each person in the class needs to use Orion? I am unclear as
> to why you only
> need one license? Orion is free to use for all purposes other than
> production use. I am not sure that an inclass training counts
> for production
> use or not.
>
> I am still stumped on why it is you need Orion specific EJB training.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 9:41 PM
> > To: Orion-Interest
> > Cc: Orion-Interest
> > Subject: Re: RE: Any news from Orion yet??
> >
> >
> > All,
> > Running a training program for EJB's gives me a different
> > perspective when dealing with EJB application vendors like Orion.
> > My experience is that they (expensive vendors like BEA ) offer
> > institutions like mine free licences and trainers in the hopes
> > that newly educated programmers would evangelize their products.
> > I have repeatedly asked for assistance in training engineers in
> > EJB's using the Orion product. They have refused to answer. All
> > we ask is that they provide us with a single license so that we
> > may set up an interactive training site for distance education
> > for a "Java and the Internet Course".
> >
> > If they truly wish to educate java-programers in Orion, you'd
> > think they'd jump at this. We charge no money for training, and
> > we benefit the independant learner in the ways of programming
> > EJB's with Orion.
> >
> > This course is open to all, but Orion's lack of response means
> > none of us can gain from it.
> >
> > If you would like to learn more about the mystery of EJB'S, LET
> > ORION KNOW. We need your help.
> >
> > Mike Van
> > C.E.O. JUGerNaut
>
