On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Rabi Satter wrote:
> As a former trainer I can understand exactly what Kevin is trying to say.
> That is when you do training you need a platform for the students to learn.
> In the case of EJB you don't say gee here is how it should work and have a
> nice day. You say here is how it works and now lets have you build an
> example. The spec does not help you and your students build a "working"
> example. You need an app server.
Sure, there's no doubt here - and this also exposes the trainees to the
various roles, and that's INCREDIBLY useful as long as it's done
properly. One of the biggest difficulties you have with deployment is when
an application or EJB developer doesn't understand the roles of the
deployer, and gets caught up in deployment issues during development and
vice versa.
> As for the cost at $1500 a pop per workstation and a typical training room
> of 15 workstations plus trainer workstation that is $24,000 not including
> cost of hardware and other software to support training people on EJB like
> JBuilder. JBuilder Enterprise is $2999 and you can see that a training room
> can quickly become an expensive proposition without aid from the vendor. I
> have not even begun to add the cost of developing courseware and
> instructors.
Whoa, here... maybe I'm offbase, but a *training* environment is NOT
commercial deployment, which means that you'd have to get NO orion
licenses. Don't take my word on it, as I'm not an Orion representative,
but that's my understanding... there's no need to pony up cash just to
have a development version sitting on each desk. (Can't help you with
JBuilder Enterprise.)
> Regardless, what is more disheartening is the lack of response from Orion.
> Quite frankly the fast way to become the number one app server is by
> training people. Those people then become your main sales force and with
> little or no cost to the company.
>From what I understand, they're very interested in seeing this happen, but
you DO have to understand the resource issue from their side. I personally
think there's a huge business opportunity here, either through partnership
or simply knowledge, for supporting Orion and thus, J2EE as a viable
deployment platform.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Duffey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 1:41 AM
> To: Orion-Interest
> Subject: RE: RE: Any news from Orion yet??
>
>
> I am sorry, but I don't quite understand how training of EJB on Orion is any
> different than that of other platforms? You are trainging EJB, not the
> vendor application server. EJB is EJB, no matter what platform it runs on.
> If every vendor adhered to the spec as they should, an EJB will run on any
> app server.
>
> Also, are you providing an online service that teaches over the internet and
> you need Orion to run that site? Or do you have in-class instruction and
> each person in the class needs to use Orion? I am unclear as to why you only
> need one license? Orion is free to use for all purposes other than
> production use. I am not sure that an inclass training counts for production
> use or not.
>
> I am still stumped on why it is you need Orion specific EJB training.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 9:41 PM
> > To: Orion-Interest
> > Cc: Orion-Interest
> > Subject: Re: RE: Any news from Orion yet??
> >
> >
> > All,
> > Running a training program for EJB's gives me a different
> > perspective when dealing with EJB application vendors like Orion.
> > My experience is that they (expensive vendors like BEA ) offer
> > institutions like mine free licences and trainers in the hopes
> > that newly educated programmers would evangelize their products.
> > I have repeatedly asked for assistance in training engineers in
> > EJB's using the Orion product. They have refused to answer. All
> > we ask is that they provide us with a single license so that we
> > may set up an interactive training site for distance education
> > for a "Java and the Internet Course".
> >
> > If they truly wish to educate java-programers in Orion, you'd
> > think they'd jump at this. We charge no money for training, and
> > we benefit the independant learner in the ways of programming
> > EJB's with Orion.
> >
> > This course is open to all, but Orion's lack of response means
> > none of us can gain from it.
> >
> > If you would like to learn more about the mystery of EJB'S, LET
> > ORION KNOW. We need your help.
> >
> > Mike Van
> > C.E.O. JUGerNaut
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
