I think Open Space will work wether the share Oscar from equilibrium or close 
to equilibrium as I suspect is born out by the thousands of successful 
examples. It seems to me the critical ingredients in boteh these situations 
are; is there enough diversity present and is there enough passion/caring/ 
energy present in the space.

David

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 19, 2011, at 1:45 PM, John Watkins <[email protected]> wrote:

> Great questions, Michael!
> 
> I think when I am feeling optimistic (most of the time) I see OST as creating 
> one of those "far from equilibrium states" that Prigogine and Stengers talk 
> about as enabling new orders to emerge; however, in less sanguine times, I 
> could also imagine OST as just a "subsystem fluctuation" enabling larger 
> system stability.  But I think that most of our larger systems these days are 
> exhibiting something like either disequilibrium or bifurcation points, so 
> maybe OST is able to restructure the system architecture so fundamentally 
> that a new order could emerge.  Weick talks about that restructuring of the 
> system architecture in order to change the "flows" of energy in the system.  
> I think Bateson referred to one kind of larger system disequilibrium as an 
> "uptight system," where at least one of the "variables" is "pinned" at its 
> upper or lower limits of its range of flexibility, resulting in that rigidity 
> rippling through the whole system.   Rigid systems change more easily, but 
> not usually in a very pretty way:  chaotic bursts, turbulence, tumbling into 
> chaos, new orders emerging spontaneously...
> 
> John
> 
> On Sep 19, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Michael Herman wrote:
> 
>> yes, thanks, john.  and... where does os practice drop into either of these? 
>>  in bateson terms, it seems open space meetings would be an alternative 
>> state that organizations are unconsciously working to prevent?  how does 
>> something like working in an open space way become part of the equilbrium 
>> state that is then automatically preserved by continually returning from 
>> anything that's alternative to that way of being in organization?  in lemke 
>> terms, there seems a place for operating in open space, but will it always 
>> require what sounds like a crisis, choice-point to be helpful?  how does 
>> working in an open space way become normal in systems that are storied in 
>> this way?  m
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> --
>> 
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>> 
>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:06 PM, John Watkins <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Michael,
>> 
>> I think Gregory Bateson addressed the question of equilibrium most 
>> eloquently a long time ago in his great book, Steps to an Ecology of Mind!  
>> And I've seen some great analysis of it in Jay Lemke's book, Textual 
>> Politics.  Let's see if I can find the relevant quotes...
>> 
>> Bateson: Systems “…maintain a dynamic equilibrium or steady state… [through] 
>> maximiz[ing] the chances against the maximization of any single simple 
>> variable” (124).  “The steady state is maintained by continual 
>> nonprogressive change” (125).  What Bateson noticed was that allowable 
>> levels of fluctuations in some subset of a larger system were used to create 
>> relative stability in the larger system, but that those fluctuations never 
>> led to fundamental shifts in the architecture of the system, as they 
>> continually shifted out of and then returned to a kind of dynamic 
>> equilibrium.   It is a “corrective action… brought about by [the awareness 
>> of] difference” (Bateson, 1972:381).  A social system “…does not elect the 
>> steady state; it prevents itself from staying in any alternative state” 
>> (381). Or, “[T]he constancy and survival of some larger system is maintained 
>> by changes in the constituent subsystem” (Bateson, 1972:339). 
>> 
>> Lemke calls that a “meta-stable non-equilibrium” (Lemke, 1995:11).  He goes 
>> on to argue that as social systems develop, they become more ordered and 
>> differentiated, increasingly complex, and as such, demonstrate 
>> irreversibility.  At some point, in various layers of their hierarchy 
>> (hierarchy in systems theory is not the same as hierarchy of authority or 
>> knowledge, e.g., bureaucracy; it is a concept of scale, in scope, time, or 
>> space), open, complex systems begin to demonstrate non-symmetry, or the 
>> possibility of bifurcation (branching, “choice” points), due to the 
>> amplified, interacting oscillations of various sub-systems.  Bifurcation in 
>> larger systems can enable larger out-of-equilibrium fluctuations in, or 
>> unpredictable interactions between, sub-systems to result in evolutionary, 
>> or adaptive, change in the larger system...
>> 
>> Does this help?
>> 
>> John
>>  
>> 
>>   
>> On Sep 19, 2011, at 9:36 AM, Michael Herman wrote:
>> 
>>> i want to echo florian's appreciation for your story, john, thank you.  and 
>>> i have a question about "equilibrium."  
>>> 
>>> in financial markets, gene fama won a nobel prize for his theory of 
>>> "efficient" markets, suggesting that markets always reflected all current 
>>> information, immediately returning to "equilbrium" after every news 
>>> release, so that above-normal returns were not possible.  many now question 
>>> or dismiss this.
>>> 
>>> so, in a world that is always moving, what does the theory you described so 
>>> nicely have to say about equilibrium?  does it then lead into questions 
>>> about locality and "self" ...the department might be in equilibrium but the 
>>> company is falling apart, or vice versa... so the boundaries of the "self" 
>>> that is being invited to organize or re-organize really matter.
>>> 
>>> mostly i'm just wondering if you can say more to map the open systems, 
>>> thermodynamics, and esp equilibrium story to what we have all seen 
>>> happening in organizations and open spaces.  is "equilibrium" the same as 
>>> "normal?"
>>> 
>>> m
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Michael Herman
>>> Michael Herman Associates
>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>> 
>>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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