Harold – I have no problem with “understanding.” Good and useful enterprise. Question is: Understanding of what? And in what frame or context. I think we have come to a point where we “understand” J that there are multiple logics, each appropriate to different senses of reality. Newtonian Physics really does work. AND Quantum Mechanics was/is crazy. In fact one of the framers of Quantum Mechanics (Heisenberg I think) remarked that that somebody’s formulation was good, but not crazy enough to be true. Or something. I think we may be at a similar paradigm/shift point. We’ll see how it all turn out.
ho Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Dr. Potomac, MD 20854 USA 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer) Camden, Maine 04843 Phone 301-365-2093 (summer) 207-763-3261 www.openspaceworld.com www.ho-image.com (Personal Website) To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to: <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Harold Shinsato Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 6:24 PM To: World wide Open Space Technology email list Subject: Re: [OSList] From linkedin today Dear Harrison, I'm looking forward to seeing you again at the Open Space on Peace and High Performance in NYC. I've been off the list, mostly a lurker, since your wonderful reply to me back in October where you said you don't bite :-). The gist of your reply back then seems to tie into this linked in (and linked - up) dialog. I've been meditating on that reply. You said if you were to put together an open space training - the short part would be the "tradecraft", all the practicalities, and the second long part "might look something like a full day in silent meditation". I thought I'd take your advice with the silent meditation part, thus my silence. Part of that time has been savoring an old used paper copy of "Spirit". Really good stuff. A shame it's out of print. But yet again - I find myself rebelling against your input on the OSList. It seems you are discouraging people to understand because it has been false understanding that had to be overturned to be appropriately in Open Space. Perhaps those living in the old paradigm have to let go of their old boxes, but my experience is mostly on the other side of this box. I'd never been attracted to management. My youth was spent with the works of American anarchists and libertarians. The concepts of self-organization seem like native soil to me. It does seem that the most urgent highest priority is the meditation. Opening self to spirit. *And* I also sense that there is value in the theory and understanding - though only in service to Spirit. And with the awareness that it needs to be adaptive, not rigid and dogmatic. In fact, I believe it's already been mathematically proven with Goedel's theorum that self-referential systems can never be perfectly described - or understood. Our maps will never be capable of fully describing the territory. But that doesn't mean a good map isn't useful. Just not the final word. So I hope - dearly hope - that we not discourage the theoreticians on the list. It's not as important as the experience of Open Space. It's not as important as the practice. But it's still valuable. My 2 cents. With Respect, Harold On 1/10/14 1:43 PM, Harrison Owen wrote: Christine – sorry for my English, and even worse, my American English. And I do tend to play with words and joke which can and does get me in trouble. But I am not really sure that your difficulty has much to do with language, neither yours nor mine. I suspect this may be a classic case of working much too hard. Indeed, I would predict that the harder you tried to understand self organization, the less likely you are to succeed. Nothing magical here – just my observation of folks such as yourself. Very bright, well trained, disciplined, and logical to a fault who when confronted with a problem WILL find a solution and develop understanding. This approach can work in lots of situations, but in the case of our relationship to self-organization in ourselves and our organizations – I find it usually leads to frustration and one might say failure. I can say all this with some authority because that was precisely my own situation. When I was confronted with what was happening in Open Space (25 years ago) it made absolutely no sense to me at all. And what makes no sense does not lend itself to understanding. I “knew,” as did everybody else of my age, background and training – that what seemed to be taking place in Open Space simply could not happen. Organization was something that we created, managed, and controlled. Meetings could only be effective with carefully prepared agendas, great attention to detail, finely tuned management and facilitation. That was the “gospel” and I did believe. More than that, people told me that I was very good at doing all those things, and I chose to believe that too. And if what seemed to be going on in Open Space was actually going on, then just about everything I believed, took to be self evident, and practiced with a vengeance – was not only open to question: It simply wasn’t true. Shocking! Worse yet, the harder I tried to understand how Open Space fit into the “boxes” I thought I was supposed to be using, the harder it all became. I knew what a good manager was supposed to do (Make the plan, manage to the plan, meet the plan). I knew how to run good meetings (create the agenda, make a design, follow the plan, control the participants). But in Open Space, none of that applied. And the more I tried, the worse things got. Been there! Things started to change when I relaxed, although it may well be that my relaxation was due to exhaustion. But in any event I found myself giving up on my efforts to “do” something, while simultaneously engaging in what the poet Coleridge called, “A willing suspension of disbelief.” In a word I just threw in the towel (Americanism for “quitting”) on any attempt to understand. Instead I spent a lot of time just noticing what was going on, even (or maybe most especially) when I just couldn’t believe it. I paid particular attention to striking anomalies – those situations where something happened which totally violated everything I knew to be true. Some folks might call such moments “counterintuitive” – but for me they were just crazy. I remember saying to a friend one time, “What sort of story would we have to tell so that what is obviously crazy comes out looking sane?” Over the years, that story has taken shape, partially by my own telling, but mostly with the aid and assistance of multiple people. We now have working titles: Complex Adaptive Systems, Emergence, Chaos Theory, and more. I suspect that most people still think it is crazy, which is why most people find Open Space rather hard to take, But for myself, insanity looks much more rational every day. Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Dr. Potomac, MD 20854 USA 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer) Camden, Maine 04843 Phone 301-365-2093 (summer) 207-763-3261 www.openspaceworld.com www.ho-image.com (Personal Website) To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to: <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christine Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 6:18 PM To: World wide Open Space Technology email list Subject: Re: [OSList] From linkedin today Harrison The difficulty of not being a native English speaker is not to be able to understand subtilities such as humor. So I am not quite sure whether you are being slightly "moqueur" (kindly making fun of me) or not. ;) However indeed i am willing to make public my struggle to understand as I truly believe that self-organization is something that is drawing more and more interest , in the public and in myself. And I have found it very difficult to understand. And also as an open space facilitator, to be completely honest, I don't know what to do with "be as invisible as possible" when not in an open space event. Before. After. That´s where we are supposed to "prepare " the system for self organisation. If I dońt understand fully what it is, how can I help prepare for it ? Or after it ? If I want to take things easier, then I can see open space technology as a tool. We don't know why it works but it works, like you say it. But if I see it as a way to help a group "better" self-organise, ie for me become more lively and healthy, then.. Well. What shall I do ? If i have a baby and want him to grow healthy and lively, i'll create a nurturing environment. But without love it won ´t work. I have very few things I can control to raise him, except myself. If he gets sick, in many cases I will look for acurate help and take care of him. Are we as open space facilitators the helpers that people look for when the system is sick ? (this looks like what i am experiencing right now) or are we gardeners of gardens that are already growing well and need a little help for becoming a bit more beautiful ? Christine Le 9 janv. 2014 à 23:24, "Harrison Owen" <[email protected]> a écrit : Christine You are wonderful! The concerns you express are those of many (myself) and your willingness to “go public” is fantastic. In fact that “willingness” is what makes our electronic community (OSLIST) so wonderful. You said: “Then there is something that I don't understand about self-org. : if we want to keep the system healthy and alive, what should we do ?” And my thought is “Nothing” and “A Lot – but subtly.” The System will do what it does, and we will never control it. And who says that our idea of “fairness” is fair? To whom, what? Why? All that said... I believe there is a whole, uncharted world of things we can bring “to the party.” Those “things” have little to do with what we have previously learned as the “right and proper things to do.” And Great Thanks to you for raising the Question that opens the door to what I believe is/are the central concerns and “growth points” along our collective journey in Open Space. More...More...More... Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Dr. Potomac, MD 20854 USA 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer) Camden, Maine 04843 Phone 301-365-2093 (summer) 207-763-3261 www.openspaceworld.com www.ho-image.com (Personal Website) To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christine Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 4:48 PM To: World wide Open Space Technology email list Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list Subject: Re: [OSList] From linkedin today Hi David Very interesting, that makes sense to me. Does it mean that supporting coherence of the system as a whole should be an organizing principle ? But then Harrison will say I guess that it is not necessary, as self org. will take care of the system itself. Then there is something that I don't understand about self-org. : if we want to keep the system healthy and alive, what should we do ? Christine Koehler 06 13 28 71 38 Le 9 janv. 2014 à 22:20, David Osborne <[email protected]> a écrit : I found the questions about how do you keep a system as a coherent whole fascinating. Part of the dance is the back and forth between coherence and fragmentation. Chaos offers both opportunity and threat, new life and death. Coherence leads to new life patterns emerging, fragmentation leads towards death and the cycle toward new life continues. In my experience there is lot's that can be done to reinforce, nurture and support coherence. Holding the space is one aspect. Drawing attention and building consensus around what is emerging is another, supporting parts of the system through conflict in a manner that continues to increase the likelihood of coherence is a third. There are many more...and those are some quick thoughts for now. All of this can and is done with in the context of self-organization and someone having the passion and taking the initiative to do it. The two are not mutually exclusive. Cheers to all. David On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 4:06 PM, christine koehler <[email protected]> wrote: Peggy If I simplify what you say (and I apologize for it), I understand that you say that what keep a self-organized system coherent as a whole is coming regularly together as a whole, following our two feet to sessions called around we love, coming back as a whole, dispersing again for the evening. Of course I would tend to agree with that. But then how do you do with very large systems ? Or does it mean that any system that is too large to come regularly together as a whole is oversized ? should split into several smaller systems to keep its good health ? and what about decision making ? Christine On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Peggy Holman <[email protected]> wrote: I’d add to what Harrison is saying about what keeps a social system coherent without someone in charge. It’s something built into the practice of Open Space Technology: coming together as a whole, following our two feet to sessions called around we love, coming back as a whole, dispersing again for the evening. Like breathing. There’s a power in coming together to reflect that connects us, helps us see ourselves in context, creates a coherent sense of “us” that complements all of the “I’s”. So without the need to make decisions or come to consensus, I suspect that long-lived self-organizing social systems create a rhythm in which the whole (or a sufficient subset of it) comes together periodically. As an example, a few years back, I learned of a group of African Americans that met informally for Saturday breakfast in Tacoma, Washington once a week for thirty-five years. This gathering became the backbone of the African American community in that city. It was the place to connect, to learn what was happening, to share ideas, to find partners, etc. No one in charge, just part of the rhythm of the community. And lots of activities emerged from it. Peggy __________________________________ Peggy Holman Journalism that Matters 15347 SE 49th Place Bellevue, WA 98006 425-746-6274 www.journalismthatmatters.org www.peggyholman.com Twitter: @peggyholman JTM Twitter: @JTMStream Enjoy the award winning Engaging Emergence: Turning Upheaval into Opportunity <http://peggyholman.com/papers/engaging-emergence/> Check out my series on what's emerging <http://www.journalismthatmatters.net/the_emerging_news_and_information_eco_system> in the news & information ecosystem On Jan 9, 2014, at 11:50 AM, Christine < [email protected]> wrote: Hi Harrison, Thank you for your answer What do you mean exactely with the law of 2 feet ? Christine Koehler 06 13 28 71 38 <tel:06%2013%2028%2071%2038> Le 9 janv. 2014 à 17:27, "Harrison Owen" < [email protected]> a écrit : I’m awake now (Thank you Michael). And Christine – to your questions and my thoughts. “In a self -organized system, how do you keep the organization coherent as a whole ? How do you make decisions that concern the whole organization ?” I think the simple answer may be, “You don’t (make decisions or maintain coherency). The System does – which is in a way the essence of self-organization. I think one way of understanding self organization is that it is the systemic response to a changing environment in order to maintain internal and external coherence... a complicated way of saying that the system wants to get along in the world in a positive fashion. Part of maintaining that systemic coherence is by making a whole bunch of decisions – none, or few, of which are made by a vote or executive dictate. A powerful mechanism in this regard is our old friend, “The Law of Two feet.” – I think. ho Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Dr. Potomac, MD 20854 USA 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer) Camden, Maine 04843 Phone 301-365-2093 (summer) 207-763-3261 www.openspaceworld.com www.ho-image.com (Personal Website) To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of christine koehler Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 5:30 PM To: World wide Open Space Technology email list Subject: Re: [OSList] From linkedin today Harrison, In a self -organized system, how do you keep the organization coherent as a whole ? How do you make decisions that concern the whole organization ? Christine On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 8:27 PM, Harrison Owen <[email protected]> wrote: Paul – This piece from Zappos is interesting indeed. Though I must say I do wonder why the Zapposites feel it necessary to organize a self organizing system? As they say, “In a city, people and businesses are self-organizing.” I agree, and why not just follow the beaten path? Holarchy is a wonderful concept, and a good description of what I think I experience in a self organizing system. But why go for a knock-off when you can have the original? Just let (invite) the system to self organize. It will work better, and costs a lot less effort. As Stuart Kauffman might say, “order for free.” Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Dr. Potomac, MD 20854 USA 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer) Camden, Maine 04843 Phone 301-365-2093 (summer) 207-763-3261 www.openspaceworld.com <http://www.openspaceworld.com%20/> www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com%20/> (Personal Website) To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Nunesdea Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 4:51 PM To: World wide Open Space Technology email list Subject: [OSList] From linkedin today Research shows that every time the size of a city doubles, innovation or productivity per resident increases by 15 percent. But when companies get bigger, innovation or productivity per employee generally goes down. So we're trying to figure out how to structure Zappos more like a city, and less like a bureaucratic corporation. In a city, people and businesses are self-organizing. We're trying to do the same thing by switching from a normal hierarchical structure to a system called Holacracy, which enables employees to act more like entrepreneurs and self-direct their work instead of reporting to a manager who tells them what to do. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pam-ross/workplace-reinvention_b_4541805.html# <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pam-ross/workplace-reinvention_b_4541805.html> ! >From my iPad _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org -- Christine Koehler,créatrice d'espacede Dialogue et deCoopération Executive Coach, Médiateur www.christine-koehler.fr <http://www.christine-koehler.fr/> Tel : 06 13 28 71 38 <tel:06%2013%2028%2071%2038> Fax : 09 <tel:09%C2%A0%2072%C2%A0%2032%2036%C2%A0%2065> 72 32 36 65 _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org -- Christine Koehler, créatrice d'espacede Dialogue et de Coopération Executive Coach, Médiateur www.christine-koehler.fr <http://www.christine-koehler.fr/> Tel : 06 13 28 71 38 Fax : 09 72 32 36 65 _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org -- David Osborne http://www.change-fusion.com/ChangeFusionLogo.jpg www.change-fusion.com | [email protected] | 703.939.1777 _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org -- Harold Shinsato [email protected] http://shinsato.com twitter: @hajush <http://twitter.com/hajush>
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