Thank you everyone for your wisdom from other fields! I did wonder with the veto process, why it didn't require the same "3 pirate" rule as elsewhere - to me it is the same sort of decision, and the same logic applies: any serious objection should be able to find two others supporters for the veto. (e.g. personally, I would always support a veto if I thought the reasons for it were not addressed...)
I guess those with the experience know what works... though I suspect people are smart enough to also work around minor tweaks in much the same way. Cheers *John Baxter* *CoCreate Adelaide Facilitator, Director of Realise consultancy* CoCreateADL.com <http://cocreateadl.com/localgov%E2%80%8B> | jsbaxter.com.au <http://www.jsbaxter.com.au/> 0405 447 829 | @jsbaxter_ <http://twitter.com/jsbaxter_> *City Grill— An Election Forum More Magnificent Than Any Ever Seen <http://citygrill.eventbrite.com.au>!, Saturday 18 October 2014Connect with your candidates, get your voice heard by joining with others in your community, and Influence the future of the city* On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 2:43 AM, Eiwor Backelund via OSList < [email protected]> wrote: > In the Genuine Contact community we use the Five to fold decision making > process, which seems a little similar to the consensus by veto process. > What differs is the talking rounds asking clarifying questions and voicing > opinions before moving to the decision. If the sponsors of the proposal > hear many opposing voices they can withdraw their proposal or change it > before moving to voting. The voting is done with your hand showing with > your fingers the energy you have for the proposal. It is also possible to > fold and by that stop the proposal if you feel that it will harm the > organization deeply. We have experienced a few folds and often it is only > one person who sees the things that others can´t see but afterwards we have > found that those folds were actually supporting the organization, even if > they at the time they were made, caused frustration for the sponsors. > > I don´t see why blocking from a small number should be less valued than > blocking from a large number, because that already takes us back to the > majority voting. One person can have the important knowledge that is > missing from the rest of the group, even in large groups. But then I also > have a lot of prejudices about consensus decisions J, this technique has > been used for a long time here in Sweden and it has meant that you are > supposed to adjust to the people who “knows best” because otherwise we will > never be able to get things done or leave the meeting room to go home. > > When I read about the Occupy DC Facilitation Committee what I see is that > they used a method they thought would be in line with their beliefs but > then created ways around that method because they wanted it their way. > Which leads back to the work on Argyris and Schön on espoused theory and > theory in use. We say and also think we do things in a certain way but very > often, without us being aware of it, we do in another way that protects > ourselves more. > > Blessings > > Eiwor > > > > *Från:* OSList [mailto:[email protected]] *För *Kári > Gunnarsson via OSList > *Skickat:* den 16 oktober 2014 17:04 > *Till:* Lucas Cioffi; World wide Open Space Technology email list > *Ämne:* Re: [OSList] Swarmwise; how to organise community like a Wave > Riding Pirate > > > > From the book: "... you can say that everybody has the power of veto for > decisions [...] However, it only works well for smaller subgroups (30 > or less people). ..." > > The book also talks a lot about is the consensus circle > > THE MAGIC OF THE CONSENSUS CIRCLE > > One good mechanism for arriving at a decision in a (defined) group > is called a consensus circle. ... p. 165 > > > > On 16 October 2014 13:07, Lucas Cioffi via OSList < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Hello Thomas, > > > > "Consensus by veto" means anything that is not vetoed is treated as > consensus. The occupy movement made decisions this way. People could give > several hand signals to indicate their sentiment when someone else was > talking without having to talk over them. Here's a list on Wikipedia of > Occupy > movement's and signals > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement_hand_signals>. > > > > You'll see a hand signal for "hard block" which means the listener is > hearing something morally objectionable (i.e. they are vetoing it). By > defining consensus as "Not morally objectionable" (i.e. not vetoed) the > Occupy Movement was able to approve more member actions/initiatives than if > they went with "universally agreed upon" as their definition of consensus, > because their members were eclectic and unlikely to agree 100% on > everything. > > > > I witnessed that OccupyDC's Facilitation Committee would change the > operational definition of consensus as the months went by so that even 1 or > 2 vetoes were still seen as consensus when they wanted to have fewer > roadblocks from their own members. So the veto number is variable as a > facilitation technique. > > -- > > Lucas Cioffi > > Co-Founder, QiqoChat.com <http://qiqochat.com/> > > Charlottesville, VA > > 917-528-1831 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Thomas Perret via OSList < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks John, great. I read your notes and this one raised a question: > > > > "for necessary decisions (e.g. directing group resources), 'consensus' by > veto is better than democratic decision-making by majority vote" > > > > What do you/the book mean by "consensus by veto" here? > > > > Thomas > > > > > > On Oct 16, 2014, at 3:51 AM, John Baxter via OSList < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hello Wave Riders > > > > I've just finished reading Swarmwise, the tactical manual for organising > community like a Pirate (i.e. Sweden's Pirate Party). > > > > Open Space methods are threaded through it, both overtly and implicitly. > I thought it was an excellent vindication of the hunch that Open Space can > be applied in very specific ways to processes much bigger than single > events. > > > > I did have an initial reaction to how strong the influence of the > individual leader-champion is. But I came to the conclusion that sort of > leadership fits the given objectives, and is no different than the sponsor > setting the topic in OST. > > So a heads up, you may have the same averse reaction to ego-centric > language that I did... but please forgive it in order to see the wisdom > within. > > > > Recommended reading for all Wave Riders: Swarmwise > <http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/14/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-one/> > . > > > > Also if of interest, my notes > <http://www.evernote.com/shard/s133/sh/265720ee-aa87-4377-9508-d191d48a966a/3ad0177a6c8434e45420dba77f54ff61> > (*not a permalink*) > > > > Cheers > > > > *John Baxter* > > ***Co****Create Adelaide Facilitator, Director of Realise* *consultancy* > > CoCreateADL.com <http://cocreateadl.com/localgov%E2%80%8B> | > jsbaxter.com.au <http://www.jsbaxter.com.au/> > > 0405 447 829 > > | > > @jsbaxter_ <http://twitter.com/jsbaxter_> > > > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > > > > > -- > > Kári Gunnarsson markþjálfi > [email protected] > https://www.facebook.com/heimsmynd > (+354) 864 5189 > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > >
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