interesting, you are proposing a basic income that is more basic for some than for others ?
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 12:18 AM, Francine Mestrum <[email protected]> wrote: > I fully agree Michel, though we have to be careful with the concept of > ‘universalism’. Our human rights are universal, they are for everyone and > are indivisible. There can be no question about that. The real question is > how you want to achieve/fulfil these rights and what task is given to > public authorities. It is wrong to assume that in order to achieve equality > we have to treat all people equally (cfr AK Sen). On the contrary, unequal > people have to be treated unequally in order to make them equal. It is only > one argument against giving all people a same amount of money (basic > income) and thinking you then work for equality. > > > > Francine > > > > *Van:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *Namens > *Michel > Bauwens > *Verzonden:* 13 February 2015 16:59 > *Aan:* Anna Harris > *CC:* Francine Mestrum; Eleftherios Kosmas; Vasilis Niaros; > p2p-foundation; Commoning; Vasilis Kostakis; George Papanikolaou; > [email protected]; Commoning List > *Onderwerp:* Re: [commoning] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [P2P-F] Greek > Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament > > > > though universal coverage may not seem fair, there is a strategic reason > for it, which is why the labour movement fought for it: if everyone > benefits, everyone also defends it; the danger is that it is seen as > something for the poor and needy, thereby losing the political support of > the middle classes, > > > > abolishing the welfare state and only helping those that deserve it, is in > fact the neoliberal agenda and argumentation today, > > > > Michel > > > > On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thank you Francine. We have long been supporters of UBI here locally, > which is part of the Green Party's manifesto. An allowance which is not > means tested, and therefore avoids the expensive structure required for > means testing, plus the suspicious atmosphere generated by accusations of > fraud, is appealing. But the fact that it is available to those with high > incomes, who don't need it, doesn't seem fair. > > > > I have not had time to read your proposals in detail, social commons > certainly brings in other possibilities. Do you have a working group > looking at this that I could join? I would like to hear Ursula Huws > opinions of this too, since she has written on UBI. > > > > Anna > > > On 13 Feb 2015, at 05:15, Francine Mestrum <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Should a commons-oriented economy not be accompanied by a commons-oriented > social policy? I have been working in the past years on a project of > ‘social commons’, in between traditional social protection and basic > income. I just finished a book on the topic, but that obviously is not > available yet. In the meantime I send you a contribution for a conference > in Spain some months ago. > > I would be happy if you could take a look at it and give me your comments. > > Thanks a lot in advance, > > > > Francine Mestrum > > Global Social Justice > > www.globalsocialjustice.eu > > Brussels > > > > *Van:* NetworkedLabour [mailto:[email protected] > <[email protected]>] *Namens *Vasilis Kostakis > *Verzonden:* 12 February 2015 15:48 > *Aan:* Örsan Şenalp > *CC:* Vasilis Niaros; [email protected]; > [email protected]; David Bollier; p2p-foundation; Roberto > Verzola; Commoning; Eleftherios Kosmas; Wolfgang Hoeschele; George > Papanikolaou; Commoning List; George Pór > *Onderwerp:* Re: [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [commoning] [P2P-F] Greek > Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament > > > > Dear all, > > With the chance of the Greek vice-president's statement, the RNS asked me > to write a short article about the Syriza and the Commons. Based on some > recent posts of mine at the P2Pf blog, the following text might be of > interest: > > Syriza’s new plan for economic development: a Commons-oriented economy? : > http://nurkseschool.tumblr.com/post/110811291631/syrizas-new-plan-for-economic-development-a > > > > By the way, this year the CommonsFest is taking place in Athens. See more: > http://commonsfest.info/en/ > > > > Best, > > Vasilis > > > > On 12 February 2015 at 11:28, Örsan Şenalp <[email protected]> wrote: > > There are comrades in the EP, like Tommaso Fattori who can make the > link best, in my opinon, between the commons and syriza. we could may > be ask them? > orsan > > > On 12 February 2015 at 09:55, George Pór <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Roberto Verzola <[email protected]> > > wrote: > >> > >> Perhaps, the next intl conference on the commons should be held in > >> Greece... > >> > > Maybe with a focus on fighting for and working with a Partner State, in > > collaboration with our Greek and Spanish commoner friends and > > commons-supporters in Syriza and Podemos... > > > > george > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 00:52:05 -0700 > >> "Wolfgang Hoeschele" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > Dear Friends, > >> > > >> > Very interesting discussion! > >> > > >> > I wonder is there opportunity (or need) to promote commons or p2p > >> > concepts directly with the Greek government? How much are they in > >> > touch with these movements in Greece and internationally? Can it be > >> > useful to them if networking with us shows EU negotiators that 1) > >> > there are proponents of a new approach around Europe and elsewhere > >> > (i.e., Syriza is not alone in searching for new alternatives that > >> > break the "grow like mad or die" alternative?), and 2) there are > >> > actual models that can be implemented and there are people both > >> > inside and outside Greece who can help make it possible? > >> > > >> > It seems to me that there is very little time available for the Greek > >> > negotiators to achieve a breakthrough and thereby allow space for new > >> > approaches to flourish in Greece, or else to fail, leading to a > >> > resumption of austerity policies (with, I fear, disastrous results > >> > for Greek politics, because I have no idea to whom Greek voters would > >> > then turn). So, if we can do something internationally to help in > >> > this process, it might be very important to do so now. Since there > >> > are Greek participants in this list, I would very much like to hear > >> > from you what you think about this. > >> > > >> > By the way, personally this also interests me because as a teenager, > >> > when my father was working in Athens, I lived there - so there is > >> > that personal connection! > >> > > >> > Best wishes, > >> > Wolfgang > >> > > >> > > >> > -------- Original Message -------- > >> > Subject: Re: [commoning] [P2P-F] Greek Vice-President explicitely > >> > endorses commons strategy before parliament > >> > From: George Papanikolaou <[email protected]> > >> > Date: Wed, February 11, 2015 10:09 pm > >> > To: Eleftherios Kosmas <[email protected]> > >> > Cc: Vasilis Kostakis <[email protected]>, > >> > [email protected], Commoning > >> > <[email protected]>, > >> > "[email protected]" <[email protected]>, > >> > Commoning List <[email protected]> > >> > > >> > Eleftherios thank you for the translation. > >> > Knowing Greek politics and considering that Dragasakis is the nr 2 > >> > (not to say nr 1) in the Greek government, I think this is an > >> > important statement. It shows profound thinking and his openness to > >> > the commons ideas. > >> > > >> > Best regards > >> > George > >> > > >> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:51 PM, Eleftherios Kosmas > >> > <[email protected]> wrote: Sorry for my previous half finished > >> > message. > >> > > >> > Hi guys. I checked the speech of Mr Dragasakis I will try to > >> > translate some parts of it. Bear in mind that due to the cultural and > >> > linguistic differences of the Greek language with English I might not > >> > be able to convey it properly (I am not a trained translator) > >> > > >> > "Title: Speech during the government's policy statements" > >> > > >> > The most interesting part at least for my shelf as a member of a > >> > commons based collective like hackerspace.gr and a strong supporter > >> > of the commons personally and in public is the following. > >> > > >> > I would like to, conclude with the permission of the President, with > >> > a general thought. Often in everyday life we all live events > >> > happening that only hindsight their importance. We live, then, and > >> > now a historic era, characterized not only by the crisis and the > >> > collapse of obsolete models, but we live a crisis that eventually > >> > spawned new models and new social organization models, as was done in > >> > the past. In this sense, then, this is an opportunity to take up the > >> > deficits of the past, to close this modernization deficit, but by > >> > addressing the contemporary social problem of unemployment, social > >> > security and social exclusion. This could establish a new paradigm in > >> > Greece and other countries of southern Europe, combining advanced > >> > forms of democracy, social self-motivation, social justice on a > >> > strong foundation of common goods, a society-centric model, which > >> > would give dignity and confidence in society hope to the people, > >> > optimism in the new generation. Thus, Greece from being the > >> > Guenna-pig of austerity and destruction could be the a ground of > >> > pioneering ideas and policies, and the benefit would not be just for > >> > us. The world would become a security goal in a region of insecurity > >> > and "aged" Europe could re-discover through the symbiosis of > >> > different development models inside. Let's not rush some say that > >> > these are utopias, because there are utopias that are realistic. Are > >> > those whose implementation depends not on supernatural powers, but by > >> > the unity and collective action of ordinary people in Europe, in > >> > Greece and worldwide. Thank you. > >> > > >> > > >> > Greek speakers could find the original here. > >> > > >> > http://www.dragasakis.gr/omiliesparembaseis.php?id=1041 > >> > > >> > I hope this could help a bit on the conversation. > >> > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:43 PM, Eleftherios Kosmas > >> > <[email protected]> wrote: Hi guys. I checked the speech of Mr > >> > Dragasakis I will try to translate some parts of it. Bear in mind > >> > that due to the cultural and linguistic differences of the Greek > >> > language with English I might not be able to convey it properly (I am > >> > not a trained translator) > >> > > >> > "Title: Speech during the government's policy statements" > >> > > >> > The most interesting part at least for my shelf as a member of a > >> > commons based collective like hackerspace.gr and a strong supporter > >> > of the commons. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:50 PM, P2P Foundation mailing list > >> > <[email protected]> wrote: understood Vasilis, > >> > > >> > but the big danger is that all the energy goes to crisis management, > >> > and that the real transformative work is put on hold for when > >> > conditions are right .. > >> > > >> > so the only way out is to work on both simultaneously, i.e. work on > >> > the crisis while also setting in place the framework for this longer > >> > term change, > >> > > >> > Michel > >> > > >> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:02 PM, Vasilis Kostakis > >> > <[email protected]> wrote: Michel, > >> > > >> > The passage you shared was written from memory and I cannot find > >> > anywhere on the web (perhaps in video format) the explicit reference. > >> > However, I think that my memory is good and more or less this was > >> > what the vice-present said. Moreover, allow me to share George > >> > Papanikolaou's reaction in relation to my message, in which he > >> > highlights that Dragasakis's basic idea was that "the european south > >> > can open the way to new productive relations". In addition to this, > >> > George emphasizes that "the priority now is to stabilize the > >> > situation and give us time for experimentation". > >> > > >> > Let's see... > >> > > >> > v. > >> > > >> > On 11 February 2015 at 17:30, Michel Bauwens > >> > <[email protected]> wrote: This is very important news: > >> > > >> > perhaps George or Vasilis can find the explicit reference ? > >> > especially in english ? > >> > > >> > see: > >> > > >> > " Dragasakis's (vice-president of the government) finale during his > >> > speech in the parliament, where he explicitly referred to new > >> > bottom-up, Commons-based productive models which will have a global > >> > orientation and will fuel Greece's post-crisis sustainable > >> > development." > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: > >> > http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan > >> > > >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >> > > >> > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >> > > >> > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Dr. Vasilis Kostakis > >> > > >> > Senior Research Fellow > >> > Ragnar Nurkse School of Innovation and Governance > >> > > >> > Research Director > >> > P2P Lab: http://p2plab.org > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: > >> > http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan > >> > > >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >> > > >> > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >> > > >> > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > >> > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > >> > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > http://elkosmas.gr > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > http://elkosmas.gr > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------ > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Commoning mailing list > >> > Commons-Institut e.V. Germany > >> > [email protected] > >> > https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/commoning > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Commoning mailing list > >> Commons-Institut e.V. Germany > >> [email protected] > >> https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/commoning > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Commoning mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning > > > > > > > -- > > Dr. Vasilis Kostakis > > Senior Research Fellow > Ragnar Nurkse School of Innovation and Governance > > Research Director > P2P Lab: http://p2plab.org > > <The social commons-Valladolid (2).docx> > > _______________________________________________ > NetworkedLabour mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour > > > _______________________________________________ > Commoning mailing list > Commons-Institut e.V. Germany > [email protected] > https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/commoning > > > > > > -- > > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: > http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan > > > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ > -- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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