Vincent, Jon, Gary F, List, Vincent, you are quite right that I was merely making explicit what has long been implicit -- and often enough *explicit* --in your work. It was certainly not my intention to suggest otherwise.
If, as Peirce argues, intelligence learns from experience, then we need to ask not only what counts as experience, but also *how experience is mediated within communities of inquiry*. Scientific experience, after all, is not merely that of isolated individuals because the fruits of those experiences are continually evaluated and disseminated through communal practices: conference papers, books, lectures, etc. This tends to sharpen the AI question (at least for me). Even if AI systems do not themselves 'have experience', they may still 'participate' in inquiries whose experiential grounding remains thoroughly human and communal. If that is so, then the normative question becomes increasingly important: It is not simply what AI systems can do, but what are the ends of its participation in inquiry, Jon's concern in initiating this thread. In my view, technology ought to assist in deepening inquiry and, so, contributing to human flourishing, not merely by accelerating computation, and *certainly not* by concentrating power. In my view, the jury is still out on the role and value of AI. Again, like Gary Fuhrman, I am deeply concerned that the development of AI is largely being directed by a small number of individuals and corporations whose priorities seem not at all aligned with the broader well-being of humanity or the planet. And I tpp am deeply troubled by the enormous energy and water demands of contemporary AI data centers. So, perhaps the most important question regarding AI may be whether its future development will be governed primarily by commercial interests or by a commitment to human flourishing and ecological responsibility. Best, Gary R On Sat, Jul 18, 2026 at 12:05 PM Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> wrote: > Jon, List, > > having thought about "expectation", and what you wrote, which of course is > correct, I have come to this temporary conclusion: > > Premisses: > > 1. (not necessarily true): Expectation, which antecedes the sign, is > such an essential requirement for a sign, that it must be a part of the > sign triad, otherwise Peirce´s method of mostly leaving the interpreter out > of consideration would not be justified. > 2. Everything that antecedes the sign token pertains (...) to the > dynamical object (your post). > > Conclusion: The interpreter´s expectation belongs to the dynamical object. > Now this case: > > Somebody is looking at a cloud and sees a face in it, of somebody he knows. > > Before, we were talking about the (necessary) purpose of a sign. But what > is the sign in this case? Is it the assumed similarity between the cloud > and the face? I guess so, because if it were the cloud, it would not have a > purpose, just a reason, which is chance due to chaotic turbulence. So I > guess, the cloud is not the sign, so is the cloud what people (Peirce too?) > call "sign vehicle"? But the assumed similarity is the interpretant too. > Are sign and interpretant identical in this case? It cannot be the > similarity (without "assumed"), because then it neither would have a > purpose. > > Best, Helmut > 17. Juli 2026 um 00:17 > "Jon Alan Schmidt" <[email protected]> > > Helmut, List: > > I already quoted Peirce's explicit statements that *every *sign's purpose > is to express fact and *every *sign's ultimate interpretant is the Truth. > Anyone is welcome to disagree with him about this, but it is fully > consistent with his speculative grammar, in which every sign has a *final > *interpretant in the sense of a final cause--the effect that it *would *have > under ideal circumstances, including the shared beliefs of an indefinite > community after unlimited investigation. It is also fully consistent with > what he called "the Meliorist view" of human knowledge in a > still-unpublished manuscript. > > > CSP: [T]here are in the first place certain real facts, which are as they > are quite independently of what you or I or any man may think about them. > Secondly, truth, being the agreement of our assertions with those facts, is > something definitely one way, and not otherwise. Thirdly, observation and > reflection, stimulated by an eager desire to ascertain that truth, > gradually lead minds toward it, so that, though ignorance and error always > remain in reference to each question, yet they become gradually dispelled. > (R 953, c. 1897) > > > The dynamical interpretant--any effect that a sign token *does *have in > an actual event of semiosis--always *succeeds *that sign token, while > anything that *antecedes *it pertains instead to its dynamical object > (cf. EP 2:410, 1907). It seems to me that an interpreter's expectation, > like an utterer's intention, is a determination of that individual > quasi-mind by *previous *signs--not an interpretant of the sign that is > *currently > *being uttered and interpreted. The latter is a determination of the > commens, "that mind into which the minds of utterer and interpreter have > to be fused in order that any communication should take place" (SS 196-7, > EP 2:478, 1906 Mar 9). > > Regards, > > Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA > Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian > www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2026 at 12:34 PM Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Correction: Sorry! I meant dynamical interpretant (fat letters in the text > below) > Jon, List, > I guess, the analysis, that AI processes symbols iconically, and does not > have access to dynamical objects, is only correct as long as it merely > crawls sites and posts in the internet. But what, if AI is connected with > mechanical robots that interact in the real world, and have artificial eyes > and ears? Maybe this already is so, maybe in Silicone Valley and China > there are already some robots striding about? > > Purpose of a sign: I think, a sensible sign must have a purpose to exist > (to be perceived). I don´t think, we can narrow "purpose" to play-impulse, > habituation, reasonableness, and the quest for truth. I think, it may be > just any purpose. The other requirement of a sign is, that it rings a bell, > that it fits to an expectation. This is the requirement for any sign, while > purpose is only a reqirement of a sensible sign. A sign, that does not have > a purpose, but fits to an expectation, is not a sensible, but a false sign, > like a theme conspiracy theorists use to have with numbers or faces in > smoke clouds. A sign, that has a purpose, but the purpose is completely > different from the expectation, and so from the interpretation too, is also > a false sign, but may be corrected in the following semiosis, other than a > purposeless sign, whose interpretant, and retrospectively it itself, only > can be discarded. > > In any case, this expectation is a part of the *dynamical* interpretant, > because it cannot be a part of the other two in any case, and neither a > part of the object. But this would mean, that a part of the *dynamical* > interpretant pre-exists. > > Best, Helmut > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or > "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go > to [email protected] . ► UNSUBSCRIBE FROM PEIRCE-L > <[email protected]> . But, if your subscribed email account is > not your default email account, then go to > https://list.iu.edu/sympa/signoff/peirce-l . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE > PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben > Udell. > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON > PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] > . > ► <a href="mailto:[email protected]";>UNSUBSCRIBE FROM > PEIRCE-L</a> . But, if your subscribed email account is not your default > email account, then go to > https://list.iu.edu/sympa/signoff/peirce-l . > ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and > co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . ► <a href="mailto:[email protected]";>UNSUBSCRIBE FROM PEIRCE-L</a> . But, if your subscribed email account is not your default email account, then go to https://list.iu.edu/sympa/signoff/peirce-l . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
