Hi,

I forgot to add "signless" in the first column of Table A.  So, according
to QMS, there are four categories of signs -- qualisign, sinsign and
legisign as usual and the new member "signless" that is thought to be the
source of all the other signs.

With all the best.

Sung


> Edwina wrote:
>
> "Therefore, to disagree with Sung, there is no such          (7596-1)
> thing as 'Signlessness' - and Peirce himself has said
> as such, in rejecting the existence of nothing."
>
> My conclusion that the ‘Singlessness’ and the associated  category called
> ‘Zeroness’ are real is based on the quark model of the Peircean sign (QMS)
> that I posted on this list almost 2 years ago (see the attached files) and
> partially reproduce below:
>
>
> “QMS specifies three distinct groups of signs – (i) interpretant-less
> signs, (ii) object-less signs, and (iii) the representamen-less sign to be
> called simply the signless. Peirce identified interpretant-less signs as
> icons and indexes, and objectless signs as sinsigns [2] (see the figure
> attached). However, to the best of my knowledge, Peirce never discussed
> the concept of the “representamen-less sign”, which would have been the
> logical extension of the interpretant-less and the object-less signs.
>
> According to QMS, the Peircean signs can be represented as S_ijk, where
> the indexes obey the so-called the Peircean selection rule, i  </  j  </
> k , the symbol, A </ B, being read  as “A is less than or equal to B” or
> equivalently “A  is not greater than B”.  (See APPENDIX below for a more
> detailed explanation).   The ten classes of signs defined by Peirce can be
> generated from  S_ijk following the Peircean selection rule as shown in
> the figure attached, which is reproduced in a simplified form as Table 1
> below.
>
> In the original QMS, the numerical values of indexes, i, j, and k, were
> confined to 1, 2 and  3. To generate the representamen-less sign, which
> would be the logical extension of the interpretant-less and object-less
> signs that Peirce already discussed [2], it is necessary only to expand
> the numerical range of the indexes, i, j and k to include the zero, 0.
> The following three propositions then follow logically:
>
> “S_ijk generates the interpretant-less signs                (1224-1)
> when i = 0.”
>
> “S_ijk generates the object-less signs                      (1224-2)
> when j = 0.”
>
> “S_ijk generates the representamen-less signs               (1224-3)
> when k = 0.”
>
> “The interpretnat-less signs are what remains of            (1224-4)
> Table 1 after removing Column III, i.e., sinsigns
> and qualisigns.”
>
> “The object-less signs are what remains of Table 1          (1224-5)
> after removing both Columns III and II, i.e.,
> qualisigns.”
>
> "The representamen-less signs are what remains              (1224-6)
> of Table 1 after removing Columns III, II and I,
> i.e.,  NOTHING  or NO SIGNS,  which is here
> referred to as the SIGNLESS.“
>
> Thus, QMS predicts the existence of the Signless, which may belong to the
> same class of entities as the NAMELESS, the INEFFABLE in the Taoist
> philosophy or the UNKNOWABLE  in the Hindi philosophy.  The connection
> between the Dao (also called the Tao) and the ’Signless’ can be inferred
> on the basis of the following sentences from Chapter 25 of the Tao Te
> Ching [3], where the word ‘Way’ is the English translation of the Chinese
> character  that is pronounced as “Dao” or “Tao” and means
> a ‘way’ or a “road”:
>
> “Something undifferentiated was born before
>          (1224-7)
> heaven and earth; still and silent, standing
> alone and unchanging, going through cycles
> unending, able to be mother to the world. I
> do not know its name; I label it the Way.
> Imposing on it a name, I call it Great.”
>
> Based on Statements (1224-6) and (1224-7), it may be concluded that
>
> “The Signless or the Dao is the origin of all signs"    (1224-8)
>
>
> Propositions (1224-1) through (1224-6) are diagrammatically represented in
> Table A , which contains one addition column labeled “Zeroness” which is
> absent in the Peirce’s theory of signs, most probably because his theory
> of signs did not consider the ontological origin of signs.  In contrast,
> the QMS includes the speculation on the origin of signs as expressed in
> (1224-8).
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> Table A.  The logical extension of the QMS to k = 0  (in addition
> to i = 0 and j = 0) leads to the prediction that there exists the
> new category called the Zeroness and the new sign called “Signless”
> (see the empty column in Table A).  Including these new entities
> allows the Peircean semiotics to make contact with the zero-totality
> theory of everything in physics [1, see the Appendix].
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
>                    'Zeroness'  Firstness   Secondness   Thirdness
>                    (Nothing)   (Quality)   (Fact)       (Law)
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> 1 (Representamen)  signless    qualisign    sinsign     legisign
>                                (k = 0)
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> 2 (Object)             -       icon         index       symbol
>                                             (j = 0)
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> 3 (Interpretant)       -       rheme        dicisign    argument
>                                                         (i = 0)
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
>
> Please note that, although QMS originated in the Peircean theory of signs
> of the 19th-early 20th centuries, it does not hesitate to go beyond its
> origin in order to accommodate new developments in physics and mathematics
> in the 21st century.
>
> With all the best.
>
> Sung
> ___________________________________________
> Sungchul Ji, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology
> Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
> Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy
> Rutgers University
> Piscataway, N.J. 08855
> 732-445-4701
>
> www.conformon.net
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Appendix -  - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>
> Rowlands, P. (2007).  Zero to Infinity: The Foundations of Physics.
> World Scientific, New Jersey.
>
> <Preface>
> Physics appears to be the only source of fundamental knowledge about the
> natural world. No other system of thought or methodology has shown any of
> its
> systematic explanatory or predictive power. This success has been achieved
> by a
> continued attempt at minimalism and reductionism, and it appears that the
> greatest success has been achieved from the simplest possible foundations.
> Yet,
> because we have been obliged to approach the subject by an inductive
> method,
> working back from complicated observations to simple explanations, we have
> still to discover the ultimate foundations on which this whole conceptual
> scheme
> has been based. We know that the ultimate theory must be simple, probably
> extremely simple, but, because it must also be unique, we have no
> precedent
> which would help us to make the discovery. Yet the belief that the
> discovery is
> possible remains, and has led to many approaches towards a ‘unified theory
> of
> physics’ or a ‘theory of everything’, none of which seems to be close to
> success.
> Obviously, no one expects to succeed instantly with a theory that will
> simply
> explain everything. What we would hope to do is to find a process, a
> systematic
> way of proceeding with strong indications that we were on the right track.
> This is
> what is being aimed at in this book. Positions that are rejected from the
> outset in
> the search include model-dependent theories of any kind; the aim of the
> work is
> resolutely abstract. One of the particular approaches avoided is the
> restructuring
> of particle physics in terms of multidimensional space-time strings or
> membranes. We can, of course, do this as a mathematical representation,
> and the
> procedure for doing so is sketched out in chapters 4, 15 and 18, but a
> string
> theory would not be a unified theory, even if we should chance to find out
> the
> ‘correct’ one from the many thousands of possible alternatives. A unified
> theory
> has to explain the concept of dimension, as well as the number (why 10?
> why
> 11?); it also has to explain space and time, their similarities and
> differences, and
> even the use of mathematics to explain physics. But there are also
> intrinsic
> difficulties with the approach which explain why it does not offer a true
> unity.
> Even the first stage of combining space and time in the simplest way, by
> adding
> the single time dimension to space’s three in special relativity, causes
> us
> problems when we look at quantum mechanics, a theory which appears to be
> an
> essential starting-point for all foundational work in physics. Time,
> unlike space,
> is simply not an observable in quantum mechanics, though the two
> quantities are
> assumed to have identical status in the relativistic ‘space-time’ concept.
> When we
> make the space-time part of an even-more complicated structure, as in
> general
> relativity, where ‘curvature’ is used to eliminate mass or gravity, the
> problems
> multiply, and we find singularities, nonlinearity, unrenormalizable
> infinities, and
> the violation of fundamental physical laws. We solve some problems, but
> create
> others.
> Again, we must reject the idea that a single cosmic creation event has
> structured the laws of physics in a particular way, and that they could
> have been
> different in different circumstances. The idea could, in principle, be
> true, but then
> we would have no abstract subject of physics, no generality, no absolute
> mathematics, and no meaningful concept of conservation, the process which
> makes physics universal. The very idea that we could discover a unified
> theory of
> physics is impossible in such a context. Physics is fractured in the very
> act of
> creation. In addition, such explanations have the habit of becoming
> self-fulfilling
> prophecies. We simply refer difficulties to special conditions that
> occurred in the
> ‘early universe’, and deprive ourselves of understanding fundamental
> physical
> phenomena which ought to be valid at all places in all epochs. This does
> not, of
> course, mean that we cannot discover historical evolution over time for
> structures
> such as stars and galaxies, and galactic clusters. What it does mean is
> that
> physics, if it is to be a truly unified subject, should not be determined
> by cosmic
> history, whether or not this turns out to be true. The laws of physics
> cannot be the
> result of an accident.
> Even the very successful approach to physics using symmetry groups, as
> employed extensively, for example, in particle physics, should be treated
> with
> caution. It is assumed that, if we find a group structure which
> accommodates all
> four known physical interactions, then we will have solved the problem of
> their
> relationship, and we will have a ‘Grand Unified’ theory of particle
> interactions.
> Of course, such a result would be a very significant step, and the idea is
> discussed in some detail in chapter 15, but we would not have solved the
> problem
> from a fundamental point of view unless we could explain why we have this
> particular group structure, and, indeed, why we have a group structure at
> all.
> Obviously, we have to proceed in understanding nature by stages, but a
> group
> structure will never be an end stage, nor will any structure. As long as
> anything
> complicated remains unexplained in our theory, we will not be able to
> describe it
> as a theory of everything.
> So it is far from obvious how we would construct such a theory, but there
> is
> one important clue as to where we should start. One fundamental idea, and
> one
> only, has the necessary simplicity and intrinsic inexplicability to be the
> foundation for everything else. This is nothing, zero in mathematical
> terms. We
> could imagine creating a theory of everything if it was also a theory of
> nothing.
> The question is: can it be done? Can we start from zero, and use it to
> structure
> nature as we understand it today? The proposition would seem to be
> impossible,
> but, in fact, it is not, and it is the aim of the present research
> programme to justify
> this statement.
> It would probably be impossible to do this by purely logical development
> from first principles, though, in a sense, mathematics attempts such an
> approach.
> Mathematics certainly provides a very powerful formalism, of which physics
> makes extensive use, but its own logical foundations, as Gödel proved,
> remain
> insecurely based on a seemingly empirical process of counting. Computing
> provides another alternative, and Wolfram and others have seen the
> development
> of complexity from simplicity in systems governed by cellular automata;1
> with
> the further assumption that the ‘right’ complex structures will somehow
> finally
> emerge, but, again, the empirical counting process is assumed, along with
> the
> idea that only discrete concepts matter. Why discreteness is to be
> privileged and
> what discreteness actually is remain unexplained. Physics allows us a very
> different route to the foundations, through the application of inductive
> methodology to masses of empirical data, and a ruthless Darwinian
> selection of
> the only formalisms which work, and it is in seeing what mathematical
> structures
> are essential to physics at its very foundations that we see what
> structures are also
> essential to mathematics and computing. By finding the common origin of
> mathematics, physics and computing and the way they deal with zero
> totality,
> using the dual processes of induction and deduction, we can finally track
> down
> the route through which ‘everything’ finally comes from nothing.
> The structure of the book reflects this process. The first chapter
> develops a
> computing analogy to see how a zero totality can be used to create a
> universal
> rewrite system, which then allows us to structure mathematics without
> first
> assuming the number system or discreteness. This exercise leads us to a
> very
> definite mathematical structure, with zero conceptual totality, which we
> can then
> work towards in a deductive context. The next chapter is inductive, and
> takes
> physics as far as we can towards its ultimate foundations by analysing the
> most
> fundamental concepts that we are capable of imagining in a physical
> context. The
> procedures used in the mathematical structure can then be seen to
> correspond
> with the ones we have derived by induction as the basic components of
> physics.
> Further analysis of the physical context then shows us, in chapter 3, that
> the most
> convenient packaging of the mathematical structure is the one that
> provides the
> shortest route to zero totality, at the same time as presenting us with
> the
> fundamental equation that drives the whole of physics. Most of the
> remaining
> chapters then present the working out of the consequences of chapters 1, 2
> and 3
> in all the detail necessary to show that the structure is sufficient to
> generate the
> results which are considered foundational to physics, even to the point of
> numerical detail. Chapters 19 and 20, however, stand apart in showing that
> the
> kind of information processing structures that make physics and
> mathematics
> ‘spontaneously’ emerge in nature also apply (in a fractal sense) to
> biological and
> other large-scale systems. Only by creating the most efficient information
> processing possible could these large-scale systems be created against the
> natural
> tendency to disorder or increased entropy, and it is difficult to imagine
> that any
> information processing could be more efficient than the one produced by
> Nature’s own rewrite code.
> If this process is true to any considerable degree, then it will be of
> significance to everyone, scientist and nonscientist alike, with or
> without
> mathematical training. So, the book has been written in such a way that
> there are
> long sections of conceptual argument, which should appeal to the general
> reader
> as well as the professional scientist. However, there is no disguising the
> fact that
> mathematics lies at the heart of this book, and that credible results, in
> many
> areas, can only be achieved by using the full mathematical formalisms. So,
> these
> are also given in full detail where required. The idea has been to develop
> all the
> ideas from as foundational a position as possible, but the presentation
> concentrates generally on results which may be considered original in some
> respect, and only makes use of established work where it is absolutely
> necessary
> to the argument. Since the mathematics of quaternions and multivariate
> vectors is
> essential to the argument, an appendix is included at the end of the first
> chapter
> giving an elementary treatment of these algebras.
> Despite the obvious novelty of the fundamental position, and some of the
> specific formalisms employed, most of the results generated certainly
> support
> ‘orthodox’ or ‘mainstream’ science, where existing work is available for
> comparison. Of course, there are new results and predictions, but there is
> no
> challenge here to the bases of quantum mechanics, classical physics,
> particle
> physics, or anything else now universally accepted. New ideas are
> certainly put
> forward in areas which are still highly speculative, such as certain
> aspects of
> cosmology, and some of the physical interpretations (for example, in
> relation to
> the emergent nature of fractional charges in quarks, or the
> gravitational-inertial
> explanation of general relativity) differ from the usual (though not
> exclusively
> accepted) ones, while retaining the overall mathematical formalisms which
> really
> define the theories. However, nothing here proposes deviations from the
> experimental evidence as now understood, though some new predicted results
> are
> available for testing, and some have already been confirmed since they
> were first
> predicted. In addition, many speculative concepts now in the literature
> would be
> ruled out by the analysis, while a few might be vindicated. A complete
> reading of
> the book should indicate that every position adopted is founded on the
> results
> incorporated in chapters 1, 2 and 3. The theoretical position is put
> forward as an
> organic whole, and every statement within it, in a sense, reinforces every
> other.
> Important links are shown through a system of cross-referencing.
> To aid the reader, there is a synopsis of the contents of the chapters at
> the
> beginning of each, and a summary of the entire argument at the end. These
> can
> be used to get a general idea of the argument where details prove
> troublesome or
> appear to require too much specialised knowledge. As with all
> presentations of
> novel results, readers will have to make up their own minds about the
> thesis
> being proposed, but the book is intended to contain the minimum of
> ‘speculation’, in the ordinary sense of that word. Only a few of the mass
> calculations and the section at the end dealing with the derivation of the
> cosmic
> background radiation are consciously put forward as speculative proposals,
> and,
> in the latter case, it could be argued that Ockham’s razor ought to favour
> an
> argument that leaves fewer unexplained facts than any known alternative.
> Many
> parts of the book (chapters 5, 6, 10 and 11, especially) are the working
> out of the
> consequences of new formalisms with the appropriate degree of mathematical
> rigour, the physical consequences following on directly from the
> mathematics,
> while the ideas on algebra and rewrite alphabets in chapters 1 and 3 leave
> plenty
> of scope for further development in the direction of practical
> application.
> Elsewhere, it is hoped that the sheer simplicity of the basic ideas, and
> their
> apparent ability to explain a great number of seemingly diverse facts,
> will
> recommend them to the reader’s attention.
> The project has a long history. I can write here in detail only of my own
> trajectory; those of my colleagues would, of course, be different and
> would have
> different emphases. The germ of several significant ideas began with
> student
> speculations.2 The essential philosophy was developed between the last
> years at
> school and the first years at university. The group symmetry of space,
> time, mass
> and charge was in place by the mid-1970s, along with the first particle
> physics
> ideas based on charge structures, and some of the gravitational and
> cosmological
> ideas outlined in chapters 18 and 21. The first publications came at the
> end of the
> 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s, but success in ‘respected’
> publication
> outlets was a long time coming.
> Lee Smolin has described how the ‘philosophical way of doing theoretical
> physics’ of the 1920s ‘gradually lost out to a more pragmatic, hard-nosed
> style of
> research’, which was ‘completed when the center of gravity of physics
> moved to
> the United States in the 1940s’.3 By the 1970s, at the exact moment when
> the
> first ideas in this book were being developed, ‘the transition was
> complete’.
> Smolin reports that: ‘As a graduate student, I was told by my teachers
> that it was
> impossible to make a career working on problems in the foundations of
> physics.
> My mentors pointed out that there were no interesting new experiments in
> that
> area, whereas particle physics was driven by a continuous stream of new
> experimental discoveries.’ The experiments, of course, led to the
> establishment
> of the Standard Model of particle physics, around 1973, but, since that
> time, no
> really new unifying principle seems to have been discovered, and the
> abandonment of research into the foundations of the subject has made such
> a
> discovery increasingly unlikely. The remarkable thing is that the pattern
> that has
> set in over the last half century or so has made many physicists seemingly
> unable
> to conceive of the concept of researching the foundations. Work of this
> kind
> seems to create bafflement in many and downright hostility in others.
> Serious publication outlets were certainly minimal during the 1980s, but
> the
> situation improved towards the end of the decade when the PIRT series of
> conferences (Physical Interpretations of Relativity) were started in
> London, by
> Michael Duffy. I first attended in 1990, and, as a result of these
> meetings (which
> are also now held in Moscow, Calcutta and Budapest), I came into contact
> with
> the Vigier conferences (Toronto-Berkeley-Paris), organised from 1995 by
> Geoffrey Hunter, Stanley Jeffers and Richard Amoroso, the ANPA conferences
> at Cambridge, organised by Keith Bowden and Arleta Ford, which I attended
> from 1998, and the CASYS conferences at Liège, organised by Daniel Dubois,
> which I first attended in 2003. All these meetings, in their different
> ways, have
> been concerned with the foundations of the subject, and with tackling
> important
> questions in a freely inquiring spirit; and it is largely through contacts
> made
> through these and related events that I first met the collaborators, who
> are named
> on the title page of this book. During these years, also, I published
> three books,
> summarising my work from the 1980s, and consolidated the new view of
> relativistic quantum mechanics I had been developing as a result of my
> theories
> of symmetry. I managed to publish the first paper on this topic in 1994,
> and set
> about relating the particle physics consequences with my earlier work on
> this
> subject.
> John Cullerne was my first real collaborator, and worked with me for many
> hours, principally during 1997-2000, on Dirac algebra and the derivation
> of the
> Standard Model and other aspects of particle physics. (See 5, 6, 14, 15.)
> Our
> intense weekly discussions were always a source of great and mutual
> intellectual
> stimulation. After this time, John’s other commitments took hold and our
> collaboration became less intense, although it still continues on an
> occasional
> basis. In particular, John has acted as adviser on parts of chapters
> 10-13, the
> orthodox making a potent combination with the unorthodox. A new departure
> was the universal rewrite system, which was the result of my collaboration
> with
> my computer science colleague, Bernard Diaz, from about 1997 (see 1, 3,
> 20,
> Appendix B). Because of its extremely fundamental nature, this has proved
> a
> difficult area in which to work, one needing endless examination and
> reexamination
> of the concepts. Brian Koberlein, whom I met through ANPA,
> worked with me intensely for a few days in Cambridge, and then via email,
> on
> groups and dual systems, and, separately, on the comparison of the
> nilpotent and
> idempotent versions of quantum mechanics (see 4, 7, 15). Presentations by
> Brian
> also stimulated the work which appears in 18.9.
> Peter Marcer (see 20) was another ANPA contact and we have now had a
> wide-ranging collaboration for many years, on many subjects, beginning as
> informal discussion, and continuing under the auspices of the British
> Computer
> Society’s Cybernetics Machine Group and the CASYS conferences in Liège.
> Through Peter, I have also had a fruitful interaction with Edgar Mitchell
> and
> Walter Schempp, our co-authors on the ground-breaking paper, ‘Zenergy’
> (see
> 20). Finally, through a London frontiers meeting, organized by Simon
> Daniel, as
> a result of an earlier Vigier meeting in Paris, I met the biologist
> Vanessa Hill, and
> we soon realised that we had a potentially powerful collaboration on
> applying
> algebraic and geometric concepts in biology (see 19). Both of these
> collaborations (as recorded in chapters 19 and 20) are developing rapidly
> and
> expanding into areas that we had not previously connected with the
> project.
> Apart from these formal collaborations, I have had stimulating discussions
> and contacts with many other researchers, including Ruggero Santilli, Erik
> Trell,
> Stein Johansen, Jeremy Dunning-Davies, Clive Kilmister, Ted Bastin, Lou
> Kauffman, Dan Kurth, Mark Curtis, Sarah Bell, Cynthia Whitney, John
> Spencer,
> John Valentine, Mark Stuckey, Jose Almeida, Otto van Nieuwnehuijze, Tolga
> Yarman, Tuomo Suntola, Sergey Siparov, Vladimir Gladyshev and Tatyana
> Gladysheva.4 Besides these there are a huge number of people to whom I and
> my
> collaborators are indebted. In particular, there are the organizers and
> participants
> of PIRT, Vigier, ANPA and CASYS, for many stimulating presentations and
> discussions; the Swansea / Bristol / Keele group (Viv and Mary Pope, Alan
> Winfield, Anthony Osborne); my colleagues David Edwards, Mike Houlden,
> Dominic Dickson, John Fry and Christos Touramanis, for their support and
> interest over many years. Mike, in particular, has been an endless source
> of new
> problems for me to challenge, and his advice and encouragement has been
> without parallel. Apart from my collaborators, he is the person of all to
> whom I
> am most indebted. The British Computer Society have been generous in their
> financial support for the Cybernetics Machine Group’s activities; and I
> have been
> a beneficiary on several occasions, along with Peter and Vanessa. I am
> also
> grateful for funding to Dmitri Pavlov, and to the British Council, as well
> as to the
> University’s Physics and Computer Departments.”
>
> Peter Rowlands
> Oliver Lodge Laboratory
> University of Liverpool
>
>
>
>
>> Gary R - agreed; the categories are modes of organization and are not,
>> in
>> themselves, signs. A Sign is a triad of Relations. And I note further,
>> Gary R's statement:
>>
>> "As with the categories, all three relations (to the sign itself, to its
>> object, to its interpretent) are always involved in any semiosis: they
>> are
>> aspects of the sign (as Frederik phrases it) and not independent
>> entities."
>>
>> And agree that there are three relations (and I've been chastized on
>> this
>> list both for using the term 'relation' and for making it plural!).
>> Agreed
>> - they are certainly not independent entities but are 'aspects' of the
>> Sign.
>>
>> Therefore, to disagree with Sung, there is no such thing as
>> 'Signlessness'
>> - and Peirce himself has said as such, in rejecting the existence of
>> nothing. Indeterminacy is not the same as zero (see 1.412).
>>
>> Edwina
>>
>>
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Gary Richmond
>>   To: Sungchul Ji
>>   Cc: Peirce-L ; [email protected]
>>   Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 10:30 PM
>>   Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: [biosemiotics:7596] Re: Peirce categories
>>
>>
>>   Sung, lists,
>>
>>
>>   Sung quoted my snippet of Peirce, then my comment:
>>
>>
>>     CSP: Only, remember that every description of it must be false to it
>>     and, it is clear to me, that
>>
>>
>>     GR: ". . . any abstract definition of it 'must be false to
>> (121514-1)
>>     it' as well."
>>
>>
>>   then wrote:
>>
>>
>>     SJ: Since Statement (121514-1) is also an abstract definition of
>> Firstness",
>>     "Firstness" must be Un-representable, and hence "Signless".  I wrote
>> a
>>     post a while ago (which I may dig up later) in which I was logically
>> led
>>     to conclude that
>>
>>
>>     "There must be 'Signlessness' which may be the semiotics
>> (121514-2)
>>     analog of mathematical 'Zero'".
>>
>>
>>   I certainly don't see it that way at all.
>>
>>
>>   1. As Edwina and others have pointed out, the Peircean categories are
>> not themselves signs.
>>   2. None of the categories appear independently of each other (except
>> extracted for the purposes of analysis).
>>   3. 1ns in consideration of (or 'applied' to) sign analysis: as the
>> sign
>> is in itself, qualisign; as the sign resembles its object in some way,
>> icon; as the sign expresses itself as a rheme, or term, or ordinary name
>> or noun, etc. (apart from its involvement in an proposition or an
>> argument) for its interpretent sign.
>>   4. As with the categories, all three relations (to the sign itself, to
>> its object, to its interpretent) are always involved in any semiosis:
>> they are aspects of the sign (as Frederik phrases it) and not
>> independent entities.
>>   5. The pure icon is a "limit case" (which I'll remark on when we begin
>> the discussion of Chapter 8 of NS next week) and all other signs
>> involving icons, the vast majority of such signs, are iconic in their
>> relation to the object.
>>
>>
>>   Best,
>>
>>
>>   Gary R
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   Gary Richmond
>>   Philosophy and Critical Thinking
>>   Communication Studies
>>   LaGuardia College of the City University of New York
>>   C 745
>>   718 482-5690
>>
>>
>>   On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Sungchul Ji <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>     Gary R wrote:
>>
>>     Only, remember that every description of it must be false to it
>>     and, it is clear to me, that
>>
>>     ". . . any abstract definition of it 'must be false to
>> (121514-1)
>>     it' as well."
>>
>>     Since Statement (121514-1) is also an abstract definition of
>> Firstness",
>>     "Firstness" must be Un-representable, and hence "Signless".  I wrote
>> a
>>     post a while ago (which I may dig up later) in which I was logically
>> led
>>     to conclude that
>>
>>     "There must be 'Signlessness' which may be the semiotics
>> (121514-2)
>>     analog of mathematical 'Zero'".
>>
>>     With all the best.
>>
>>     Sung
>>     __________________________________________________
>>     Sungchul Ji, Ph.D.
>>     Associate Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology
>>     Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
>>     Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy
>>     Rutgers University
>>     Piscataway, N.J. 08855
>>     732-445-4701
>>
>>     www.conformon.net
>>
>>
>>     >
>>     > GR
>>     > :
>>     > The Peirce quotation
>>     > [Howard]
>>     >  offered concerns only an "absolute" first and *that*, no doubt,
>> is
>> an
>>     > abstraction and, as such, cannot be experienced.
>>     >
>>     > HP: If it cannot be experienced how do you know this abstraction
>> is
>> more
>>     > than an artifact of language?
>>     >
>>     > H
>>     > oward, the thrust of my post was exactly that firstness *can be*
>> and
>>     > *is* experienced.
>>     > Peirce offers an abstract definition of firstness in the passage
>> you
>>     > earlier quoted in the interest of clarifying the kind of
>> phenomenon
>> it is
>>     > "
>>     > Only, remember that every description of it must be false to it
>>     > " and, it is clear to me, that any abstract definition of it "must
>> be
>>     > false to it" as well.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > Were there such a phenomenon as absolute firstness which could
>> stand
>> apart
>>     > from its participation in a reality which involves all three
>> categories,
>>     > it
>>     > might look like Peirce's abstract definition. There is no such
>> abstract
>>     > firstness in reality--there are only the embodied firstnesses such
>> as
>>     > those
>>     > I described.
>>     >
>>     > Peirce concluded the passage you quoted by saying that what is
>> first
>> is "
>>     > present, immediate, fresh, new, initiative, original, spontaneous,
>> free,
>>     > vivid, conscious, and evanescent.
>>     > "
>>     >
>>     > My personal example was meant to suggest just that presentness,
>> immediacy,
>>     > freshness, newness, spontaneity, vividness, consciousness, and
>>     > evanescence.
>>     >
>>     > B
>>     > est,
>>     >
>>     > Gary R
>>     >
>>     > [image: Gary Richmond]
>>     >
>>     > *Gary Richmond*
>>     > *Philosophy and Critical Thinking*
>>     > *Communication Studies*
>>     > *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York*
>>     > *C 745*
>>     > *718 482-5690*
>>     >
>>     > On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Howard Pattee
>> <[email protected]>
>>     > wrote:
>>     >
>>     >>  At 09:54 PM 11/29/2014, Gary Richmond wrote:
>>     >>
>>     >> The Peirce quotation you offered concerns only an "absolute"
>> first
>> and
>>     >> that, no doubt, is an abstraction and, as such, cannot be
>> experienced.
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >> HP: If it cannot be experienced how do you know this abstraction
>> is
>> more
>>     >> than an artifact of language?
>>     >> I would say that Firstness now belongs to the ongoing *qualia*
>>     >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia> problem
>>     >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia>.
>>
>>     >>
>>     >> The question arises for any abstract verbal distinctions. For
>> example,
>>     >> Edwina's "three 'pure' or 'genuine' modes, 1-1, 2-2, 3-3, or
>> Firstness
>>     >> as
>>     >> Firstness, Secondness as Secondness; Thirdness as Thirdness."
>>     >>
>>     >> Just as confusing are the converse failures to make distinctions
>> that
>>     >> have
>>     >> empirical content. For example, Peirce's lumping abduction with
>> logic.
>>     >>
>>     >> Qualia problems will require more than philosophical and
>> linguistic
>>     >> distinctions to clarify. We will need to know more about what is
>> going
>>     >> on
>>     >> in brains.
>>     >>
>>     >> Howard
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




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