Tom - see my replies below: ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas To: Stephen C. Rose Cc: Edwina Taborsky ; <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Instinct and emotion
Stephen, Edwina, List ~ I agree that instinct leads to physical activity (though sometimes inside the body where it can't be seen). But it is triggered by environmental changes. That is the standard definition of instinct. It is not so much an "inclination" as "who you are" in a certain environment. But you may never encounter that environment, so you would never know. I do believe we have a socializing instinct, because we were part of someone else before birth and closely tended to for several years after birth, often in the presence of siblings. We therefore perceive living with others as the norm. EDWINA: We have a socializing instinct, not simply because we were part of someone else before birth - and that IS valid, but because our knowledge base is almost entirely learned. Therefore, as a species, we MUST be social or we are unable to live. That is, without language, without learning how-to-get-food; how to build shelter etc...we would not survive as a species. So this instance raises the possibility that instincts are gene-based *except in one case: where the mother (i.e., a loving, attentive mother) is involved. Then, genes and baby/infant emotions both originate from the same source -- so their effects (in the child) are blended and confound analysis. In that case I don't have a firm opinion. My *guess: we have socialization instincts (genes) AND socialization habits learned during infancy AND emotional feelings related to other people (community) shaped by the infant experience (with mother+father). EDWINA: The socialization instinct is genetic; the socialization habits are learned - because our species alone of all species, has the capacity to change its technological attributes by which it interacts with the environment. Emotion is a basic requirement for developing and using socialized habits/knowledge. Officially, though, instincts are hard-wired into us (DNA), and do not have a community trigger -- unless the community alters the environment. Individuals isolated from their communities have the same instincts: drop a young bird from a tree that never met another bird, and it will flap its wings and fly. Regards, Tom Wyrick On Jul 19, 2015, at 3:19 PM, Stephen C. Rose <stever...@gmail.com> wrote: I wonder what controls instincts which I see as somewhat like inclinations which suggest movement and power. I am inclined to think it is the interplay within a community though not always in ways that can be understood. I wonder of Peirce with his seemingly default inclining toward the community as a sort of teleological destiny and his sense of the porousness of the individual ultimately felt that instincts have something like consciousness? Books http://buff.ly/15GfdqU Art: http://buff.ly/1wXAxbl Gifts: http://buff.ly/1wXADj3 On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ozzie <ozzie...@gmail.com> wrote: Edwina ~ My notes on habit and evolution are more wide-ranging (random?) than your comments/questions. These are my interpretation of the science, but of course I can be wrong. 1- Is instinct a property only of the more complex realms? That depends on how one interprets "instinct." If we define instinct as behavioral feature shared by all members of a "species," then protons and electrons DO have an instinct to spend time with each other, when the opportunity presents itself. The +/- attraction characterizes all protons and electrons, and they always exhibit the expected behavior in a neutral environment. I consider that an instinct. Other subatomic particles don't (necessarily) possess it. Some may label this a "characteristic" of protons and electron, instead of an instinct, which is fine with me -- if it is understood this characteristic describes behavior, not physical attributes. 2- Those protons and electrons can change into altered versions of their original states if placed in a different environment. However, I don't consider that evolution. It is a reaction to the environment. The +/- characteristics of atomic particles don't change physically or alter their behavior without something happening in the neighborhood/environment where they reside. Chemists change their environment, but so do other things (e.g., heat in stars, electromagnetic radiation from the earth's core, nearby atoms). If evolution occurred, then we could not reverse the process and break materials down into the original atoms. 3- Evolution modifies living things (over time) to add physical features to them that incorporate regular/everyday life activities into the physical body of species members. Then, behavior originally attributed to volition become instinctual. Theoretically, nature "decides" that a one-time investment of resources (so to speak) reduces physical and cognitive effort that would otherwise be required throughout the lifetimes of the species members. Following evolution, the individual can devote effort and cognitive attention to more pressing matters that occur less frequently but have greater survival value, such as an attack by predators. All of this is captured by your statement that evolution "is a basic form of knowledge." I agree. I see it as nature's knowledge embodied into a living thing. 4- When evolution provides "instincts" that are efficient substitutes for cognitive activity, an external observer may perceive cognition when none actually occurs. (Observers may not be able to see something, and abduct some phenomenon that doesn't exist.) 5- Creatures do not simply evolve the "ability to think" or "ability to move" in some generic way, but evolved the ability to process information and move in a manner that supports efficient outcomes. Thus human brains are created as logical organs, with abduction/induction/deduction shaping (being reflected in) the physical structure of the mechanism just as our digestive tracts are structured efficiently to perform that function. Brain cells (neurons) are in the stomach to detect toxins and trigger a rapid response. 6- Living things do, as you say, have a clear advantage over abiotic bodies when it comes to evolution. However, abiotic bodies comprise the things that evolve, so they are along for the evolutionary journey. A light photon traveling from the sun is abiotic, but a plant captures and processes it to produce sugar and oxygen. Then animals eat the sugar and breathe the oxygen. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Biological life is comprised of abiotic material, and that's what it eventually becomes when life ends. 7- For an atom (anything) to "evolve" in nature, it appears a mechanism would have to exist involving birth, death, reproduction, the concept of more fit vs. less fit, etc. I am not aware of anyone describing such a mechanism for atomic particles. It is possible that some atoms can be described as "evolving" into metals or certain compounds independent of environmental conditions, but I am unaware of any such mechanism. 8- I watched a video last night from the iTunes Store about Darwin which illustrated the example provided in your final sentences. The same bird evolved different beaks on each of the Galápagos Islands, corresponding to the food found on each. A series of birds collected by Darwin were laid next to each other; on one end was a tiny beak, while on the other the beak was very large. The birds evolved, not the beaks, via the "survival of the fittest" mechanism. (This is #7.) Other genetic changes occurred in the birds while their beaks were evolving, so they became distinct species and lost the ability to reproduce with each other. Regards, Tom Wyrick On Jul 19, 2015, at 8:44 AM, Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca> wrote: Tom - I like your outline of the nature of instinct, as a property triggered by an external stimuli. This further suggests that instinct is a property found not merely in the individual unit - i.e., an entity with distinct boundaries (which could be a chemical molecule or a bacterium) but further, only in an entity that has the capacity, as that individual, to act and react (which could take place both within the bacterium and the molecule). So do both the biotic and abiotic realm function within instinct? Or is instinct a property only of the more complex realms? That is, instinct is seemingly removed, as a form of knowledge, from the normative habits or rules-of-formation of abiotic matter. Certainly, a chemical molecule can, in interaction with another molecule, transform itself into a more complex molecule. But are the habits, the chemical rules-of-formation on the same operational level as instinct? Can these habits continuously adapt and evolve in the abiotic realm? That is, is instinct a specific form of innate knowledge that gives the biotic realm an existential advantage? I'd suggest that it is a basic form of knowledge that activates the organism to adapt and evolve in the face of environmental stimuli. If the environment changes such that a property is missing in the environment (water, food, security, other members of the species) - then, instinct will activate the individual to move to a site where such properties do exist. One could also suggest that if the environment changes such that food seeds have tougher shells, instinct, stimulated by the deprivation of food, would activate the current individuals in that area to develop a tougher beak. Edwina ----- Original Message ----- From: Ozzie To: Benjamin Udell Cc: peirce-l@list.iupui.edu Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Instinct and emotion Ben, list - Thanks for your interesting comments. I will spend more time thinking about them later today. Let me briefly address one sentence from your comments: "I'd say that instincts can also be triggered _inside_ the body, e.g., by prolonged emptiness of the stomach." According to the common definition (interpretant) instincts are triggered by things in the external world. Before birth, food is ALWAYS available to the baby. After birth, and assuming an attentive mother (caregiver), food continues to be available without any effort or reciprocation on the baby's behalf. This goes on daily for many years, so not feeling hunger pains becomes the norm, the expectation. Against that backdrop, when food is withheld (by the external environment), one's sensation of hunger (-) is a disturbance to the status quo (0), which summons the instinct to do something (+) to make that "pain" go away. When something from the environment is eaten (+), the sensation (-) disappears (0). It is in this sense hunger pains and their elimination are related to (triggered by) the individual's contact with the external world. If the individual eats a full meal AND THEN feels hungry, I agree that particular sensation has an *internal trigger (likely emotions or a physical disability). Regards, Tom Wyrick On Jul 17, 2015, at 8:04 AM, Benjamin Udell <bud...@nyc.rr.com> wrote: Regarding some of your comments, I'd say that instincts can also be triggered _inside_ the body, e.g., by prolonged emptiness of the stomach. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. 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