Dear Bernard, list,
I’m surprised you do not have answers to your own questions, since this is, after all, a Peirce list, and of course, a Peirce list is about ‘*what Peirce actually wrote’* regards *‘Peirce’s way of thinking’*. And Peirce said this: ‘This is man,’ I mean, *everybody* knows that, that is, if one is able to entertain the thought that *everybody* is hypostatically the same ego. Besides, would Peirce even be a philosopher, if he failed to recognize and treat the question of ‘*Man is a Sign*’? For we all know, and Peirce has even said, that “All Men are equal in their political rights.” Hence, that must be *true* because Peirce said it. With best wishes, Jerry R On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:35 PM Bernard Morand <morand.bern...@neuf.fr> wrote: > > Le 10/06/2020 à 18:08, John F. Sowa a écrit : > > > > Bernard Morand summarized the meaningful content of this debate in one > > sentence plus one image: > > > > BM> In place of the old, often recurring debates on this subject I > > propose to muse over a painting from René Magritte entitled "Le sens > > des réalités" > > > > That image, which shows a large boulder suspended in the middle of the > > clouds, is an excellent illustration of the way JAS assembles > > "fireworks of quotations" (RM's phrase) to state a hypothesis (AKA > > guess) and defend as if it were gospel truth. > > > John, List > > I was not trying to illustrate the project JAS is persuing. > > I wanted to ask by means of the painting: what does "Real" mean ? With > the consequence: What is "Real" in the nature of signs? > > This latter question seems to me to be at the core of the Peirce's way > of thinking. > > Going back to the Magritte's painting, I think impossible that the > boulder may be "suspended in the middle of the clouds" as John see it. > > Because it would be a manifest violation of the law of universal > gravitation. The boulder is falling down to the earth that we see > distinctly on the lower part of the image, may be it is some kind of > meteorite. > > So we have from the beginning an image of the Reality: that which will > hurt you -and perhaps kill you- if you stay under the boulder. > > But we can imagine some other senses of realities apart this one that > has been derived from the necessity of law. > > The boulder is really an event, here and there on the painted scene, -it > is an intrusion- and as such it causes an effect of surprise for the > audience (this effect is also initiated by Magritte himself to make the > spectator think about the scene). This intrusive event is also a sense > of realities: to be able of observation. > > Finally one latter sense of reality may consist in the consideration of > the painting as recalling to our memories the extinction of the > dinosaurs. A possibility already envisaged by scientists. > > Sure, all of this comment of the Magritte painting is highly > problematic. Many more stories could be presented in illustration of the > painting, probably as much as people commenting it. > > Sure, there is in this example nothing which proves that Peirce's > semiotic is a truth. As a matter of fact common sense has already > recognized that "an example is not a proof". > > Nevertheless one can see that his semiotic elementary distinctions > -immediate and dynamic object, immediate dynamic normal interpretant, > sign- are there, behind. I just choose to escape technical terms in this > mail. > > Nevertheless the Magritte painting is a Sign, a complex one. But it > needs to be perceived in order to act as such, I agree strongly with > Robert on this. > > I finish with two questions of which I have quite no answer: > > 1) If it is possible to speak seriously about signs without referring > explicitely to their technical definitions, what does it mean to pratice > "applied semiotics"? > > 2) If signs need an observer, who is this observer if not a sign himself? > > Regards > >
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