Helmut, List: HR: The object determines the sign, the sign the interpretant, and *the interpretant changes the object*, which is some sort of determination too.
According to Peirce, the bolded part is incorrect. CSP: As a *medium*, the Sign is essentially in a triadic relation, to its Object which determines it, and to its Interpretant which it determines. In its relation to the Object, the Sign is *passive*; that is to say, its correspondence to the Object is brought about by an effect upon the Sign, the Object remaining unaffected. On the other hand, in its relation to the Interpretant the Sign is *active*, determining the Interpretant without being itself thereby affected. (EP 2:544n22, 1906) The directionality of semiosis is such that the object determines the sign while being unaffected by that sign, and the sign determines the interpretant while being unaffected by that interpretant. Hence, the object determines the interpretant through the mediation of the sign while being unaffected by that interpretant. Regards, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 9:20 AM Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote: > Edwina, yes, I agree. Only the model I used is different: While you say, > that the representamen grows, I talk about old and new sign. Like the snow > situation is a continuous thing in reality, in the mind of the interpreter > it serves as a new sign again and again. If you say, the snow situation is > the representamen, ok, then it grows, but for me the appearance of the snow > situation in the interpreter´s mind is the representamen in either case of > noticing it. What grows in the interpreter´s mind, is the object of snow. > Whether that is the immediate or the dynamical object, is hard to decide > for me: At times of no sign, it still is in the interpreter´s memory: How > to handle the snow. But while this knowledge is sleeping in the memory, it > is not a part of any sign, so it is dynamical object, i would say. Anyway, > it is hard for me to distinguish between immediate and dynamical/real > object: An object part may be dynamical in the intentional or effectual > interpretant, but immediate in the cominterpretant, and sometimes it may be > hard to know the size of the commens, because, especially in the internet, > nobody knows who is taking part in a discourse. I know, that the flow of > determination can categorally not go upwards. The object determines the > sign, the sign the interpretant, and the interpretant changes the object, > which is some sort of determination too. And then I guess, as the > interpretant serves as a new sign, this sign is, besides by the old > interpretant, also determined by the now having changed object. This looks > like a redundancy of course, but if the object is changed in a larger > context/commens, this change too determines the sign of a smaller (sub-) > commens, and in this case, this determination part is not redundant with > the information/determination carried by the interpretant in the narrower > commens. Like this, i think we might better see the complexity of all this, > and how signs interact via object change, if we construct or tell more > examples. In signs including physical action, there is an energetic > interpretant, and the object change is material as well. The material part > of the dynamical object then is easy to identify, as it is spatially > defined, it can be marked. But the conceptual part of the dynamical object > can not, that is why it is not always easy to exactly tell it from the > immediate object, i guess. > > Best, Helmut >
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