Drewk, you seem to think that "proof" is something everyone agrees on. One person's proof is another's obfuscation, suppression, etc., as you yourself admit. I don't know the details of the history of your interaction with other points of view, so I don't know whether others have totally ignored your "disproofs" or not. Maybe they have. My experience is that these kinds of disagreements are usually based on methodological issues, philosophical issues, differences in emphases, and the like, so that usually, though not always, people more or less make sense within their own framework. There are exceptions, of course. Anyway, if these threads are intended to get people out to your sessions at the Easterns, like the one with Gary Mongiovi presenting the Sraffian critique of your work, and you and Alan Freeman responding, then it's worked for me. I'll be there. Mat
-----Original Message----- From: Drewk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:23914] RE: Re: RE: marx's proof regarding surplus value and profit I agree that "Not all disagreement is maliciously motivated attempt to "suppress" the truth." So how do we decide in a particular case whether it *is* a suppression of the truth? (I leave aside the issue of motives.) It is one thing to claim to prove error or internal inconsistency when one can prove it. It is another thing to claim it when one cannot. When the alleged proofs have been disproved and one *continues* to claim it, that is clearly an instance of suppression and clearly an ideological attack. When one does not retract the falsified "proofs" in the face of disproof, that is clearly an instance of suppression and clearly an ideological attack. None of this has anything to do with "disagreement." Am I right or not? If not, why not? It is one thing to claim to that one can jettison Marx's own value theory, and still hold that surplus-labor is the sole source of profit, when one can prove it. It is another thing to claim it when one cannot. When the alleged proofs of this proposition have been disproved and one *continues* to claim it, that is clearly an instance of suppression and clearly an ideological attack. When one does not retract the falsified "proofs" in the face of disproof, that is clearly an instance of suppression and clearly an ideological attack. Again, none of this has anything to do with "disagreement." Am I right or not? If not, why not? Andrew Kliman -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Justin Schwartz Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 10:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:23905] Re: RE: marx's proof regarding surplus value and profit > >This is precisely right. This is why it is suppression of Marx -- >his theory SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ALLOWED TO BE APPLIED. This is what >people like Roemer et al. say, and why it is utterly disingenuous >to say that they were/are just expressing a different viewpoint. > > >Andrew Kliman > That's right, Andrew. We all know you have correctly understood Marx, and we grasp clearly what your perspective, I mean his perspective is, and we know that it id true. But because we are in league with Satan, wesupress it. I mean, for heaven's sake, be serious. Not all disagreement is maliciously motivated attempt to "suppress" the truth. I am sure that Roemer and Gil and Roberto (and me) do our best to understand Marx, among other things, but sometimes that is not good enough. With Roemer, clearly it isn't. Gil's another story. And moreover we may just honestly disgree both with your reading as toits accuracy as a reading of Marx, and as to its adequacy to the world. We can do these things without "suppressing" anything. Roemer et al would be delighted to have Marx's view applied, also explained. Of course we still might disagree. jks _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
