I agree with Steven, almost everything is political, unfortunately. And getting rid of the vocabulary of oppression in computer science, of course, is close to nothing compared to the real fights for equal rights & justice. But we have to do our part, even if it is not really significant for the people suffering. We have to do it because of the concept words carry. There is no need to talk about master(and slave) for naming computer's concept. I'm not referring to any specific periods or ethnicities enslaved in the past, but the principle of having people dominating others. I believe in cooperation over domination. Open source looks like anarchism by its very nature, and that's great! So let's use words with positive or neutral meanings as open source contributors. That won't make the inequalities disappear overnight but at least that kind of change is meaningful and will make some people realize that words have meanings.
Harald Le jeu. 22 juil. 2021 à 02:59, Steven Costiou <[email protected]> a écrit : > Le 2021-07-21 16:26, Esteban Maringolo a écrit : > > I agree with the fact that words shape our way of thinking, but how > does master in this context relates to slavery? > > > I would agree that a master/slave disk setup would directly relate to > that, but as I see there are no "slave" branches nor repositories. So > I really don't understand it. > > > Sure, it was randomly chosen. > Perhaps it designates a martial art master, which totally makes sense for > the main branch that controls a software project. > Totally makes sense. > > Of course everybody knows Microsoft does not really care (maybe some of > their employees, I don't know) and that is just marketing (again, maybe not > for people who feel concerned, but I will not speak for them). > In the meantime, if nazis were not trying to shut up the big-picture-idea, > those "discussions" would not happen. > > > As for Pharo being political, I have my doubts, > > > It is political by essence, as an **open-source** project, it is more > political because it promotes a vision, it is even more because it requires > funding that is found by many ways that involve choices and politics. > > Then, the fact that you and your friends (you are a few here) want that we > don't speak about that kind of topics (it was the same for the code of > conduct) **is** political. > So, you, by *arguing* with me right now, are making it political. > > What more do you need? > > > > but calling people > names does not foster dialogue, > > > Exactly! I don't want to dialogue with nazis and hear their shit, I want > them to go away. > > And don't play the naive card: using precise keywords "woke", "woke > incursion", "virtue-signalling", etc. are the mark of the nazis calling for > more nazis to help them shut social and political actions down. > It is factual. I am not the one insulting. > > > > > > > and certainly doesn't help building a > stronger community. > > Best regards, > > Esteban A. Maringolo > > On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:18 AM Steven Costiou <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Bullshit bullshit bullshit. > > It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism > that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off. > We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but > that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone > from the community takes her time to solve the project. > > Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis > that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind > of social movement discussion. > + typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid. > > Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so > it has a political dimension and it will be discussed. > You can do nothing about it. > Just quit. > > > > Le 2021-07-21 11:51, [email protected] a écrit : > > Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation. > > > > The phrasing „woke" actually came from „the left", first it was being > „woke" about feminism, then this, then that. > > Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, „woke" > fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists > (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing > insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself. > > Then, those who called themselves / their positions „woke" in the past, > started screeching that it is „extreme right vocabulary". > > > > As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to > do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some > words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also > used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage. > > > > But it usually takes „having the lived experience" of the woke garbage > turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their > religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said > what I felt needed to be said. > > > > And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate > why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. > forums/mailing list. > > > > Everyone, keep on making Pharo great. > > > > From: Steven Costiou <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM > To: Rauš Miloslav <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main > renaming > > > > So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". > "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight > to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis. > > So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively > on the subject. > But your reply seems to point otherwise. > And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that > vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. > What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :) > > It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it > is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are > "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). > Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? > This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not. > > Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding. > > Steven. > > Le 2021-07-20 20:12, [email protected] a écrit : > > Hi, > > > > it's „highly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, > but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to > be sneakily subversive). > > > > I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done > by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows („extreme > right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just > divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list. > > > > You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative > connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes > today is no wonder. > > > > As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those > nations called „Slavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, > nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word „slave" came from our > enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame „heirs" of those who enslaved us > in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you > know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays > brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were > colonizers as well ? > > > > NO. > > > > No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what > happened in the past, before my father was born, etc. > > > > Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community > won't let themselves be pulled into it. > > > > M.R. > > > > From: Steven Costiou <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM > To: Pharo Development List <[email protected]> > Cc: Rauš Miloslav <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main > renaming > > > > Le 2021-07-19 16:54, [email protected] a écrit : > > Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent > of the master to main naming convention > > That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling > response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing > master->main transition). > > The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of > needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever > is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / > China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. > > > > I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor > understanding of english. > But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in > general should leave the community. > Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") > should leave the community. > If that's trolling, all the same. > > > > If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably > you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. > > > > Steven. > > > > > > I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of > "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". > > > Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at > least I tried. > > > M.R. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Mackinnon <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM > To: Pharo Development List <[email protected]> > Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main > renaming > > Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent > of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small > community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this > one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify > other things to make this an easier change? > > > Tim > > > > On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Sven > > From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of > problem. > I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master > and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that > people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. > I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think. > > S > > > > On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi, > > For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. > > There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of > options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. > > Specifically: > > This does not work > > ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit > BaselineOfReddit > > instead you have to say > > ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ > BaselineOfReddit > > It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) > > Sven > > > > > > > >
