+10^27 (That's hellaplus ;-)) Best and most positive rant I've heard in a long time!
-- Cheers, Peter On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 2:26 AM, Eliot Miranda <[email protected]>wrote: > Hear hear!! > > (specific responses below) > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Jimmie Houchin <[email protected]>wrote: > >> On 12/7/2010 5:38 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Hope that additional to the fun, we can converge to an understanding how >>> can we increase Smalltalk popularity. >>> >>> OTOH, I made the reference as a sample, I did not intend to have this as >>> all encompassing list of issues nor start a thread about comparisons with >>> other languages. >>> >>> As I said earlier, what is 'trivial' or 'intuitive' for some is >>> 'maverick' or 'bizarre' for others, it is in the eyes of the beholder... ;-) >>> >>> My main message is more around this: although Smalltalk was a very >>> advanced technology when its inception, present status have almost all of >>> its characteristics embedded in present technology. Even, when newer >>> concepts as xUnit have started in Smalltalk, the _concept_ was absorbed in >>> mainstream technologies so again we're stuck with small delta between what >>> Smalltalk does 'better' than the incumbent technologies we would like to >>> replace. >>> >> >> I can't help but disagree with this most strenuously. >> >> Almost nothing has touched Smalltalk's advanced technology. They don't >> have the world view or paradigm for doing so. They are languages that >> operate in dead cycles. They have dead processes and do dead post mortem >> debugging. Yuck! (yes, I know that was redundant. :) >> >> I am not a computer scientist or trained programmer. I am a creative guy >> who is a businessman. I find Smalltalk empowering. I also use Python when >> necessary, but Squeak/Pharo is my preferred language. I find myself >> infinitely more productive in Smalltalk than in Python. Operating in a live >> environment is incredibly empowering, enabling and productive. Where else >> can I find this. C, C++, C#, Java, Python, Ruby, VB, nope, none... >> >> Demonstrating large scale Smalltalk projects have been canceled does not >> prove Smalltalk's inferiority, nor that the competition (should one choose >> to refer to them as such) has caught up or passed us. Especially when said >> project was not canceled for technical reasons but political ones and for >> software that was/is demonstrably inferior to the already existing Smalltalk >> software. But what it does prove is that Smalltalk has been and can be >> effectively deployed for large scale projects where someone has the courage >> or political will to choose something different than the status quo >> languages. >> >> The decisions of PHBs (Pointy Haired Bosses, Dilbert) does not invalidate >> anything about Smalltalk. After all their primary motivation is job >> security, not project success. No one ever got fired for choosing, MS, Java, >> IBM, Oracle, etc... >> >> The biggest weakness for Smalltalk or at least our open source version in >> Squeak/Pharo IMHO is its integration, cooperation or access story to certain >> outside systems and technologies. And I speak as an end user who cannot >> develop a plugin, or use Alien or FFI and program in C. In my situation for >> example. I have to interface to either a Windows dll or to a Java library to >> access financial servers. No choice. So I must choose a technology which can >> interface their technology. In my case, I chose to use Python to interface >> the Windows dll. I have written a minimal Python app which accesses the dll >> and thus the servers to access the data and my accounts. But the business >> logic I am writing in Pharo. The Python app simply provides my Pharo app the >> data and executes the actions directed by the Pharo app. >> > > Indeed. An immature FFI, lack of dll options etc. Integration is indeed > one of the biggest weaknesses. But we're making progress here. So things > may be different in months, if not years. > > >> >> I would that I could have interfaced the dll (or Java library) directly >> from Pharo. But despite that obstacle I am choosing to write my app in >> Pharo. Most in this business are using VB/C#/Java. They do not provide the >> flexibility or productivity that I have in Pharo/Smalltalk. They do not >> enable the small guy like me as well as Pharo/Smalltalk. Yes, this is my >> opinion. But guess what. This is a Pharo mailing list populated by people >> who are for and proponents of Smalltalk. If we favored other languages and >> environments we would be there. Many of those on the this list are also >> pretty dog gone expert in the other technologies as well. They did not make >> their decisions out of ignorance. What I don't understand is that if you are >> so convinced that the advantages of Smalltalk are so minimal and of no >> consequence, then why are you here? >> >> I would like to see Pharo/Squeak bridge the gap to be able to interface >> system components or other business libraries. I would like to be able to >> use Pharo/Squeak anywhere I could use Python. I would like to see that there >> are fewer and fewer technical reasons for not choosing Pharo/Squeak. I can >> understand other choices. Other people are more comfortable with other >> languages, systems, environments. They may have a knowledge, systems, and >> process investment. But this can only validate their decision for them and >> in no way invalidates the technology or capabilities of Smalltalk. >> >> There are many, many projects for which Smalltalk/Pharo/Squeak have no >> discernible technological disadvantages. They do not require any systems >> integration or use of the "native ui". >> >> Enterprise. I agree with the sentiment that we don't need to worry about >> it. Let Cincom address enterprise users. We need to empower the little guy >> in the enterprise who has small side projects which do not have to go >> through the same channels as the larger "enterprise" projects. Projects for >> which they might choose Python or Ruby. Over time we can improve our >> enterprise story and infiltration. Fortunately for us, >> Smalltalk/Squeak/Pharo is in the long game. It has seen technologies come >> and go and is still here. If we the open source Smalltalk community continue >> to make the improvements we are making, then we will be an increasingly >> viable choice for the entrepreneur, small businessman, enterprise guy with >> the side project, the person with a project they do on their personal time >> at home. It is the most enabling technology I know. >> >> Well, I'll end my rant here and get back to being enabled in the >> development of my business app. >> >> Jimmie >> > > Thanks for these fine words Jimmie! > > best > Eliot > >
