Esteban,

I can, of course, only speak for myself and I must admit I never really used Dolphin for more extensive projects. What I always was envious of as a long-time VA Smalltalk-user was the nice look & feel of Dolphin. It just felt like Windows, acted and looked like Windows and offered all those neat little "newer" widgets (at the time) that IBM simply ignored and let their users dry off from.

The very same reason once made me excited about Ambrai Smalltalk, which was nicely integrated with MacOS X at the day. Like Dolphin, which more or less capitulated from the .net transition, Ambrai died because it was based on Carbon and coult not easily be adapted to Cocoa.

I'd like to not start a flame war, but one thing that (I think) turns people away from most Smalltalks is that they neither look nor feel like a native application on any of the platforms they support. The only one that does is probably ObjectStudio. The web seemed to change the game, but then we fell behind all those frontend technologies that run in the Browser. Smalltalk is not very present/prominent in that field (yet?).

The first impression of Pharo and almost all other Smalltalks is probably that if that thing looks so "different" and maybe even "old fashioned", how can that possibly be a modern, highly productive development environment?

I personally like the Approach of WindowBuilder and/or SWT for building GUIs, but MVP also works very well and had a few nice side effects when it comes to exchanging teh presentation of a ViewModel. So MVP is probably also a sweet spot of Dolphin. I once was a big fan of IBM's Composition editor, but these days I'd go for WindowBuilder rather than CompEditor. I like the ability to change both code and visual representation, whatever fits my needs.


Just my 2 cents

Joachim






Am 10.04.19 um 08:25 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano:
Hi,

Time to time I hear people like Richard saying “Dolphin is the dialect most beautiful Smalltalk he used” and others praising it in different levels. As Pharo “architect” (or whatever I am, but at least I’m sure I have to pay attention to the IDE :P), I’m interested to know what elements of Dolphin dialect you find “beautiful”, “enjoyable” and productive.
What it is?

- the MVP?
- integration with Windows? The way this integration is done? (If so… how is it done?)
I am very interested on knowing this with some detail level. That doesn’t mean I will react and do something, but I want to have a better understanding and put it in my radar to take inspiration to enhance the Pharo experience :P

Esteban

On 10 Apr 2019, at 03:09, Richard O'Keefe <rao...@gmail.com <mailto:rao...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On this laptop I have
 - Squeak
 - Pharo
 - GNU Smalltalk
 - VisualAge Smalltalk
 - VisualWorks Smalltalk
 - Smalltalk/X
plus some oddballs like susie, amber, and CSOM.
On another laptop I have
 - Strongtalk
 - Dolphin
And of course I have my own 'astc' Smalltalk-via-C compiler.
I have to say that Dolphin is easily the most *beautiful* Smalltalk
environment I've used.  (Yes, I'm the kind of person who has four
different C compilers on the same machine and uses them all.  You
don't want to know how many Javascript implementations...)

The important thing here is that there are at least two aspects to
"Smalltalk". There is Smalltalk-the-approach-to-OO and there is
Smalltalk-the-many-related-but-different-IDEs. When it comes to
productivity, the IDE is important.  Really important.  But when
it comes to thinking about programming and solving tasks like
exercism ones, it's the approach that matters.  And that approach
pays off in languages like Javascript and Ruby and Python as well.

I used to be a University lecturer.  Now I'm a (sub)contractor.
I used to see a LOT of student code that
 - had way too many classes
 - did not use existing well-known classes when it should
 - failed to encapsulate private state
 - put responsibilities in the wrong places
and that was Java code.  What prepared me to see such issues in Java?

Lots and lots of practice in Smalltalk.

And lots of reading Smalltalk, and figuring out what made it easy or
hard to read.

I do not know how much time you have on your hands,
but you might find it profitable to look at
http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta_Code
specifically
http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Smalltalk

Look at the bottom of that page for a list of 258
problems solved in Smalltalk.


On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 03:20, Roelof Wobben <r.wob...@home.nl <mailto:r.wob...@home.nl>> wrote:

    Thanks,

    for the discusson and lessons.

    I will think about it and also think if smalltalk is for me.
    I did the pharo Mooc and still have a lot of problems making the
    smalltalk way click in my head so I can solve little problems
    like this.

    Out of coriousy what dialect do you use?


    Op 8-4-2019 om 17:11 schreef Richard O'Keefe:
    You are expected to use my code fragments for *ideas*,
    not to incorporate them *literally* in your code.  As
    I explained, *without seeing the specification*, I have
    no way to tell whether the specification uses a left-handed
    or right-handed coordinate system.

    For what it's worth, here's a complete program in my
    Smalltalk dialect.  It doesn't plug into the exercism
    testing framework because I can do not know what it
    looks like.  But if it makes the code more complicated
    that this, it's doing it wrong.

    require: 'geometry.st <http://geometry.st/>' "Point"
    require: 'print.st <http://print.st/>' "OutputStream>>print:"

    Object subclass: #Robot
      instanceVariableNames: 'position direction'
      poolDirectionaries:    'FileStream'

      methods for: 'initialising'
        pvtPostNew
          position  := 0@0.
          direction := 1@0.

      methods for: 'accessing'
        direction
          ^direction copy

        location
          ^location copy

        obey: commands
          commands do: [:each |
            each caseOf: {
              [$A] -> [position  := position + direction].
              [$L] -> [direction := direction leftRotated].
              [$R] -> [direction := direction rightRotated]
            }].

      class methods for: 'main'
        start
          [StdIn atEnd] whileFalse: [
             |robot|
             robot := Robot new.
             Robot obey: StdIn nextLine.
             StdOut print: Robot location; cr].

    On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 02:58, Roelof Wobben <r.wob...@home.nl
    <mailto:r.wob...@home.nl>> wrote:

        yes, this is a real  tests from the pharo track on
        exercism.io <http://exercism.io/>

        I understand what you mean but maybe I overthinking things.
        But if we have a robot facing north and the robot turns to
        the left  , im my oponion it faces now to the east.

        like this test is saying :

        
test04_RotatesTheRobotsDirection90DegreesClockwiseChangesTheDirectionFromEastToSouth
            | result |
            result := robotSimulatorCalculator
                moveDirection: 'east'
                position:
                    (Dictionary new
                        add: 'x' -> 0;
                        add: 'y' -> 0;
                        yourself)
                instructions: 'R'.
            self
                assert: result
                equals:
                    (Dictionary new
                        add: 'direction' -> 'south';
                        add:
                            'position'
                                ->
                                    (Dictionary new
                                        add: 'x' -> 0;
                                        add: 'y' -> 0;
                                        yourself);
                        yourself)


        but I cannot come to the same outcome with this code :


        pointToName: aPoint
        ^aPoint x isZero
        ifTrue:  [aPoint y > 0 ifTrue: [#north] ifFalse: [#south]]
        ifFalse: [aPoint x > 0 ifTrue: [#west ] ifFalse: [#east ]]


        maybe exercism.io <http://exercism.io/> is not a good way to
        practice and learn smalltalk but I found not a better one.
        or smalltalk is not for me.

        Roelof











        Op 8-4-2019 om 16:44 schreef Richard O'Keefe:
        The basic issue here is abstraction.
        An instance of "Robot" in your program is not a
        physical object.  How could it possibly point North,
        South, or Nor-nor-west?  It cannot.
        Its location and direction are abstract values
        *metaphorically* related to real world notions
        like position vectors and velocity vectors.
        "North" in this program is not a real thing,
        it is an *idea* which could be represented by
        'North', 'north', #North, #north, $N, $n,
        'Raki', 'raki',  #Raki,  #raki,  $R, $r,
        137, (0@ -1), a picture of the star Polaris,
        the colour red (the conventional colour for
        that end of a compass needle which points north),
        a sound recording of a lecture by Alfred North
        Whitehead, or anything you please, as long as,
        inside the program, it *acts* the way *you* want
        "north" to act (which is not necessarily the way
        the physical direction North acts, and in fact in
        this case it most certainly is not).

        Locations and movements in a 2D space are, in Smalltalk,
        commonly represented by Points.  "Represented by."

        As for this method:

        
test11_MovesTheRobotForward1SpaceInTheDirectionItIsPointingIncreasesTheYCoordinateOneWhenFacingNorth
            | result |
            result := robotSimulatorCalculator
                moveDirection: 'north'
                position:
                    (Dictionary new
                        add: 'x' -> 0;
                        add: 'y' -> 0;
                        yourself)
                instructions: 'A'.
            self
                assert: result
                equals:
                    (Dictionary new
                        add: 'direction' -> 'north';
                        add:
                            'position'
                                ->
        (Dictionary new
                                        add: 'x' -> 0;
                                        add: 'y' -> 1;
        yourself);
                        yourself)

        PLEASE tell me that is not what they are actually using.
        Let's start with
        (Dictionary new)
        add: k1 -> v1;
        ...
        add: kn -> vn;
        yourself
        Did you know that sending #add: to a dictionary is not
        portable? Storing actual Association objects inside
        Dictionaries was originally an encapsulation error and
        remains a performance error, so there are Smalltalks
        that do not make that mistake.  The *portable* way to
        make a Dictionary is
        (Dictionary new)
        at: k1 put: v1;
        ...
        at: kn put: vn;
        yourself.

        And why in the name of sanity are the keys *strings*
        instead of *symbols*?  This is not Smalltalk. It is
        Javascript in drag.

        Now exercism.io <http://exercism.io/> has a habit of
        insisting on particular
        implementations. For example, I completed the SML track,
        and found that the test code ONLY worked with Poly and
        not with any of the three SML implementations I already
        had on my machine.  Since you are doing this in Pharo,
        I take it that exercism.io <http://exercism.io/> will
        insist on the Smalltalk
        track being done in Pharo, and in that case it is
        *nauseating* to use a Dictionary when you could use a
        Point. Old-fashioned Smalltalk style would have been
        to return something like
        #(<direction> <x> <y>)
        e.g. #(north 1 0), and I still prefer that.

        In fact *good* Smalltalk style for something like this
        would be
        
test11_MovesTheRobotForward1SpaceInTheDirectionItIsPointingIncreasesTheYCoordinateOneWhenFacingNorth
          robotSimulatorCalculator
        moveTo: 0@0;
        head: #north;
        obey: 'A'.
        self assert: robotSimulatorCalculator heading equals: #north.
        self assert: robotSimulatorCalculator location equals: 0@1.

        -- We're starting to get the idea that identifiers like
        robotSimulatorCalculator are not a very good idea when
        simulatedRobot would do the job as well or better.

        (This is also pointing us towards Betrand Meyer's
        Command/Query Separation principle, but we shan't
        go there today.)

        This is important feedback to give to the exercism.io
        <http://exercism.io/>
        people. The test code should use a SMALLTALK interface,
        not a warmed-over JAVASCRIPT interface.

        Now, how do we map between direction *names* and
        direction *points*?  Well, we have to start by
        laying down clearly what we *mean* by the directions.

        To move North one step is to add 1 to y and 0 to x.
        (We know that from the appalling test case above.)
        To move South one step is to add -1 to y and 0 to x.
        (South is the opposite of North.)
        To move East one step, oh we have a problem.
        THIS NEEDS SPELLING OUT.  And one of the things the
        exercism.io <http://exercism.io/> exercises are HORRIBLY
        BAD AT is specifying
        the problem.  Nearly every single exercise I have tried,
        I have been unable to tell what the problem is without
        examining the test cases, and that is not the way
        exercises are supposed to work.  (Yeah, that's why I'm
        screaming about it.  I've taught a class using exercises
        like this that were not of my writing and vague specifications
        really upset the students.  People who had taken the class
        under someone else several years before were still angry
        about it.)

        The geometric classes in Smalltalk were written to support
        graphic user interfaces.  And in user interfaces, the y
        coordinate increases DOWN.  So if we take the compass rose
        and rotate it so that North is DOWN, it follows that
        West is right and East is left.  So

        To move East one step is to add -1 to x and 0 to y.
        To move West one step is to add 1 to x and 0 to y.

        The chances are excellent that the problem specification
        is inconsistent with this.  Sigh.  Let's proceed, though.

        North 0@1
        South 0@ -1
        East -1@0
        West 1@0


        pointToName: aPoint
        ^aPoint x isZero
        ifTrue:  [aPoint y > 0 ifTrue: [#north] ifFalse: [#south]]
        ifFalse: [aPoint x > 0 ifTrue: [#west ] ifFalse: [#east ]]

        nameToPoint: aSymbol
        aSymbol = #north ifTrue: [^0 @ 1].
        aSymbol = #south ifTrue: [^0 @ -1].
        aSymbol = #west  ifTrue: [^1 @ 0].
        aSymbol = #east  ifTrue: [^-1 @ 0].
        aSymbol error: 'not a compass direction in lower case'.

        Another problem I had with exercism was a "Space-Age"
        exercise where the README.md capitalised the planet names
        but test_Space-Age.<whatever> insisted on lower case.
        That might well happen here.

        Just for grins,
        Dictionary>>
        asPoint
        ^(self at: 'x') @ (self at: 'y')

        Point>>
        asDictionary
        ^(Dictionary new)
        at: 'x' put: self x;
        at: 'y' put: self y;
        yourself




        On Mon, 8 Apr 2019 at 22:15, Roelof Wobben
        <r.wob...@home.nl <mailto:r.wob...@home.nl>> wrote:

            Richard thanks.

            One thing I do not see direct.

            you said :


            A direction could be represented by a pair of integers
            dx, dy such that |dx|+|dy| = 1.  It could also be
            represented by a Point with integer components.

            for me a direction is the direction the robot is facing
            so something like north or east.

            the challenge also wants a output like this :

            
test11_MovesTheRobotForward1SpaceInTheDirectionItIsPointingIncreasesTheYCoordinateOneWhenFacingNorth
                | result |
                result := robotSimulatorCalculator
                    moveDirection: 'north'
                    position:
                        (Dictionary new
                            add: 'x' -> 0;
                            add: 'y' -> 0;
                            yourself)
                    instructions: 'A'.
                self
                    assert: result
                    equals:
                        (Dictionary new
                            add: 'direction' -> 'north';
                            add:
                                'position'
                                    ->
            (Dictionary new
            add: 'x' -> 0;
            add: 'y' -> 1;
            yourself);
                            yourself)

            so how do I "convert" the point you are using to the text.

            Or do I misunderstood you somewhere wrong.

            Roelof




            Op 8-4-2019 om 10:57 schreef Richard O'Keefe:
            One thing I have often seen and lamented is students
            writing excessively complicated code with way too many
            classes. There is a huge difference between
            "A Robot knows its position and direction."
            and
            "A Robot has-a Position and has-a Direction."
            The first is the important one. The second is
            an over-commitment to too many classses.  For a
            problem like this, you really really do not want
            a Direction class, and you certainly have no use
            for double dispatch.

            A position can be represented by a pair of integers
            x, y.  It could also be represented by a Point with
            integer components.

            A direction could be represented by a pair of integers
            dx, dy such that |dx|+|dy| = 1. It could also be
            represented by a Point with integer components.

            For movement, you need to be able to add the direction
            to the location, which could be simply
            x := x + dx.  y := y + dy.
            or it could be
            position := position + direction.
            For turning, you need to be able to rotate a direction
            vector by ninety degrees.  Now it so happens that
            Point has methods #leftRotated and #rightRotated.

            So we can do the following:
            a Robot has position (a Point) and direction (aPoint)
            position := 0 @ 0.
            direction := 0 @ 1.
            To move forward without turning:
            position := position + direction.
            To turn left without moving:
            direction := direction leftRotated.
            To turn right without moving:
            direction := direction rightRotated.
            To obey a sequence of characters, commands:
            commands do: [:each |
            each caseOf: {
            [$A] -> [--move forward--].
            [$L] -> [--turn left--].
            [$R] -> [--turn right--]
            }].


            One of the key ideas in extreme programming is
            "You Ain't Gonna Need It", abbreviated to YAGNI!
            The idea is *DON'T* generalise beyond your immediate
            needs. In this case, for example, the likelihood of
            *this* program needing to deal with more general
            kinds of movement is ZERO.  And the only reason for
            using Point here instead of just using a few simple
            assignment statements is that Point already exists,
            so costs nothing to write, and as a familiar class,
            code using it should be easy to read.

            If someone challenges you to do something
            counter-productive,
            refuse the challenge.

            On Mon, 8 Apr 2019 at 17:21, Roelof Wobben
            <r.wob...@home.nl <mailto:r.wob...@home.nl>> wrote:

                I can try to explain what I trying to solve.

                I have a Robot which can turn left,  turn right or
                moveForward.

                now I have a string like 'LAR'

                that means the robot needs to turn left (l) , move
                forward one place (A) and turn left.
                and I have to keep track to which direction the
                robot is facing and on which coordinate it stands.

                so to summarize with the above string

                lets say the robot is facing north on coordinate
                (0,0)
                then it has to turn left , so its facing east and
                still on coordinate (0,0)
                then it has to move forward, so its still facing
                east but are on coordinate(0,1)
                then it has to turn right, so its facing north and
                on coordinate (0,1)

                and TimMacKinnon has challenged me to do this with
                double dispatch.

                So I think now I need a object Direction, a sub
                object North and a sub - sub object TurnLeft,
                turnRight and moveForward.

                So I can use double dispath first the direction
                North, East, South, West
                and then use double dispatch to find the right move.

                Roelof





                Op 8-4-2019 om 06:50 schreef Richard O'Keefe:
                It would really REALLY **REALLY** help if we knew
                what
                the heck you were trying to do. There is an excellent
                chance that it is MUCH simpler than you think. 
                If you
                cannot show us the Smalltalk version of the problem,
                can you show us the version for some other language?


                On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 20:15, Roelof Wobben
                <r.wob...@home.nl <mailto:r.wob...@home.nl>> wrote:

                    Op 6-4-2019 om 15:15 schreef K K Subbu:
                    > On 06/04/19 4:49 PM, Roelof Wobben wrote:
                    >> Hello,
                    >>
                    >> I just learned double dispatch.
                    >> And now for the Robot challenge of
                    exercism Tim has pointed me to
                    >> this
                    >>
                    
article(https://blog.metaobject.com/2019/04/accessors-have-message-obsession.html)

                    >>
                    >> but I fail to see how the move method
                    looks like in that article.
                    >> I had a conversation with Tim in the
                    exercism channel and the way he
                    >> explains it, it looks like double dispatch
                    for me.
                    >>
                    >> Am I on the right track or do I oversee
                    something here.
                    > unary methods like moveRight perform
                    specific ops and are not
                    > parametric, so only a single dispatch,
                    depending on the receiver, is
                    > needed.
                    >
                    > If you change it to move: aDistanceOrAngle,
                    then performing requests
                    > like "move: 3 cms" or "move: 30 degrees"
                    will depend not only on the
                    > receiver but also on the class of the
                    argument. This would need double
                    > dispatch (aka multiple polymorphism). The
                    first dispatch would be
                    > based on the receiver and the receiver's
                    method would then dispatch it
                    > based on the class of the argument (i.e.
                    Distance>>move or Angle>>move )
                    >
                    > HTH .. Subbu
                    >
                    >


                    hmm, still stuck

                    I have now a class Direction with as instance
                    variables north, south,
                    east, west
                    and made the accessors.

                    then I thought I need a initialize like this :

                    initialize
                        north = Direction( 0, -1).
                        east  = Direction( 1,  0).
                        south = Direction( 0,  1).
                        west  = Direction(-1,  0).

                    but the Direction (0,-1)  is a problem . the
                    compiler does not like the
                    (0,-1) part

                    to give you the big picture. I have a Robot
                    which can turnRight ,
                    turnLeft and moveForward and I try to
                    understand how the page would work
                    in my case.

                    So I have a object Direction as described
                    above and a Object MoveForward
                    which is a subobject of Direction.
                    MoveForward has only 1 method :

                    IsMove
                        ^  'A'

                    Roelof








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