I think the argument is more consistency in the language than anything. Sure
we'd be regressing symantically, but we've done it before for the better of
the language. I proposed the user just creating a userspace function.
Granted not perfect. Rasmus came up with, in my opinion, the much better
idea of defining a function alias at runtime. The unfortunate defect of
course is that PHP doesn't support that, but maybe this is a good reason why
it should. Having runtime aliases gives us a clear and dependable way to
deal with this problem now, AND in the future. I can attest to some of the
mind bogglingly stupid function naming that pops up here and there in PHP,
and this gives a consistent way to deal with it - users should fix it, but
are more than welcome to just have an alias. We could even let aliases be
defined in php.ini so they're global.

We clearly have our roots in dozens of languages, but that does not mean we
need to be confined to those roots in a policy of strict appeasement. I
think, among other things, PHP has earned the right to break away from this
appeasement game and set our own standards and our own rules. When we stop
living in the shadows of other languages is when we will move from a good
language to a great one.


Cristopher Daniluk
President & CEO
direct: 330/530-2373

Digital Services Network, Inc
Unleashing Your Potential
voice: 800/845-4822
web: http://www.dsnet.net/

-----Original Message-----
From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 9:29 AM
To: PHP developer list
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Woah

* On 2001-09-08 at 08:34,
  Zeev Suraski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> excited the electrons to say:
> Not really.  You only have to conform if you believe that PHP is not a
> standalone language.  You're also assuming that most of PHP's userbase has
> C background, which is usually not true.  Among those coming from C
> background, usually they have a limited one, and would not be used to
> gettext() aliases.

This sort of argument keeps coming up, but Zeev is the lucky one
who sets me off.. :-)

People are very free to speak about what *others* expect.  Unless
you are one of them, or have concrete evidence, then such remarks
are nothing more than speculation, and the electrons that conveyed
them are already doing other things. :-)  For instance: Zeev, did
you come to PHP from C?  Did/do you use gettext in other languages?
If the answer to the latter, at least, is 'no' then I think the
experience of people like Rasmus and Chuck -- who *do* use gettext
a lot, and in other languages -- carries a helluva lot more weight
than your speculation and that of other non-gettext-users.

Inconveniencing your long-time users in the name of language purity
is, IMHO, just plain stupid.

> I'm not sure why you're failing
> to see the fundamental difference between a function that is complex and
> perhaps requires prior knowledge, and an entry that obscures the
> *namespace* of PHP.

And I personally am not sure why the 'get rid of "_"' faction is
failing to see that doing so would be a language REGRESSION, not
a step forward.  Please tell me of some examples in other languages
in which long-time warts with thousands of users have been removed
in later versions in the name of 'language purity.'  If you can name
some, cool; I will be less ignorant, and might reconsider my
position.  Otherwise, d'you think PHP should be *that* kind of
groundbreaker? :-)

Look, I think there is no question that removing '_()' is going
to BREAK some users.  I do not see how anyone can consider that a
Good Thing.  I suggest that it be left in, and documented
more clearly, and the documentation updated to say 'the use of
gettext() is highly recommended and preferred over that of _()'.
#ken    P-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist      http://Apache-Server.Com/

"All right everyone!  Step away from the glowing hamburger!"

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