I think the argument is more consistency in the language than anything. Sure we'd be regressing symantically, but we've done it before for the better of the language. I proposed the user just creating a userspace function. Granted not perfect. Rasmus came up with, in my opinion, the much better idea of defining a function alias at runtime. The unfortunate defect of course is that PHP doesn't support that, but maybe this is a good reason why it should. Having runtime aliases gives us a clear and dependable way to deal with this problem now, AND in the future. I can attest to some of the mind bogglingly stupid function naming that pops up here and there in PHP, and this gives a consistent way to deal with it - users should fix it, but are more than welcome to just have an alias. We could even let aliases be defined in php.ini so they're global. We clearly have our roots in dozens of languages, but that does not mean we need to be confined to those roots in a policy of strict appeasement. I think, among other things, PHP has earned the right to break away from this appeasement game and set our own standards and our own rules. When we stop living in the shadows of other languages is when we will move from a good language to a great one. Regards, Cristopher Daniluk President & CEO email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] direct: 330/530-2373 Digital Services Network, Inc Unleashing Your Potential voice: 800/845-4822 web: http://www.dsnet.net/ -----Original Message----- From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 9:29 AM To: PHP developer list Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Woah * On 2001-09-08 at 08:34, Zeev Suraski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> excited the electrons to say: > > Not really. You only have to conform if you believe that PHP is not a > standalone language. You're also assuming that most of PHP's userbase has > C background, which is usually not true. Among those coming from C > background, usually they have a limited one, and would not be used to > gettext() aliases. This sort of argument keeps coming up, but Zeev is the lucky one who sets me off.. :-) People are very free to speak about what *others* expect. Unless you are one of them, or have concrete evidence, then such remarks are nothing more than speculation, and the electrons that conveyed them are already doing other things. :-) For instance: Zeev, did you come to PHP from C? Did/do you use gettext in other languages? If the answer to the latter, at least, is 'no' then I think the experience of people like Rasmus and Chuck -- who *do* use gettext a lot, and in other languages -- carries a helluva lot more weight than your speculation and that of other non-gettext-users. Inconveniencing your long-time users in the name of language purity is, IMHO, just plain stupid. > I'm not sure why you're failing > to see the fundamental difference between a function that is complex and > perhaps requires prior knowledge, and an entry that obscures the > *namespace* of PHP. And I personally am not sure why the 'get rid of "_"' faction is failing to see that doing so would be a language REGRESSION, not a step forward. Please tell me of some examples in other languages in which long-time warts with thousands of users have been removed in later versions in the name of 'language purity.' If you can name some, cool; I will be less ignorant, and might reconsider my position. Otherwise, d'you think PHP should be *that* kind of groundbreaker? :-) Look, I think there is no question that removing '_()' is going to BREAK some users. I do not see how anyone can consider that a Good Thing. I suggest that it be left in, and documented more clearly, and the documentation updated to say 'the use of gettext() is highly recommended and preferred over that of _()'. -- #ken P-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "All right everyone! Step away from the glowing hamburger!" -- PHP Development Mailing List <http://www.php.net/> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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