On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 00:06 +0800, Orlando Andico wrote: > On 8/15/05, Dean Michael C. Berris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > .. > > My my... What happened to "I don't need to prove anything... No I will > > take it from a fresh-from-grad-newbie..." ? Now the zealots like me have > > to prove something... Hmmm... ;) > > I never implied that any linux zealot would have trouble building such > a product. in fact, i have every confidence that such a product can be > built. >
Great. :D > .. > > > but let's see that geek wannabe do it for even 10 installations. and > > > support it. > > > > But why would that geek wannabe do it for even 10 installations and > > support it? Why doesn't he just do it and leave it for the world to use? > > because, if you want your work to be used in the wider world (and i > don't mean the linux geek mutual admiration society) it has to meet > certain standards of ease of use, and must be easy to support by the > point-and-drool crowd. > Well, if I want my work to be used in the wider world, I think I should make it 1) work 2) work well 3) work better as the need arises and 4) hope that others find use in it as I do. Now regarding the standards on ease of use, and must be easy to support by the point-and-drool crowd, who sets THAT standard? What if my intended audience for the application was for people who needed to do a certain task in administration? How about bash, do you need a neat GUI for bash? > .. > > I work on Linux. I don't speak for all the Linux geek wannabe's out > > there but I love what I do. If that ticks you off, then I'm sorry. And > > oh yes, I happen to do some things for free when I want to -- I'm sorry, > > I'm just a linux geek wannabe. I'll just catch on to your flame bait all > > the time and have my fun while I air out whatever I have on my mind -- I > > won't mind if it's a techinical mailing list, and I'm talking to a > > veteran. > > > > Remeber, I'm a linux geek wannabe zealot. With time on my hands. ;) > > no, no. i do have time on my hands *myself*. it's all well and good to > duct-tape your own solutions. but in my experience, these duct-tape > solutions DON'T SCALE. > Then it depends on how you duct-tape your solutions then. I've duct-taped Beowulf clusters before, and I think THEY scale. ;) > tell me, which of your pet free software projects have been adopted by > more than a handful of people? Does that matter? Is this an intended personal "criticism" (read: attack)? So what if my pet free software projects haven't been adopted by more than a handful of people? Did you actually stop to think what my motivations for opening the sources to the projects were? Have you actually stopped to think that the projects might be there "just for the heck of it"? Or maybe you forgot that Linux was "just for fun"? And like most of the tools YOU and I are using (like emacs, bash, vim, etc.) were just out there "for the heck of it"? > > it's easy to whip together a solution to a pet problem. that IS > scratching one's itch, after all. but the vast majority of linux > zealots / geeks don't "get" the equally important problem of writing > good documentation, having a nice user interface for the > point-and-drool crowd.. these are simply not "interesting" problems > for the average linux geek. but these are make-or-break features for > the point-and-drool folks. > So you understand that, and you just criticize us Linux zealots who aren't as blessed as you who "get" the important problem of writing good documentation, having a nice user interface for the point-and-drool crowd? Why don't you stop "criticizing" and actually do something about it aside from feeling "bitter" that some geeks aren't like you? I dare you to write a "nice" GUI for a software project. No, let me categorize that -- I dare you to actually come up with a nice GUI for some tool you think is "inadequate". But I might forget, you don't need to prove anything right? > .. > > Yeah, and unfortunately some people just like to use Linux and learn > > more about it -- and have no bitterness against people who don't. Or, > > maybe some people just want to be able to do what they want at their own > > time and not have to prove anything to anybody. > > i don't see why you think i'm bitter about this whole thing. i don't > see why you see it as flamebait. > And you don't think your "attitude" towards your "side issue" doesn't sound like flamebait? How about calling out "Linux geek wannabe's" like me (I still feel that I am a wannabe) and "daring" "us" to do something? Let's say that was a rhetorical question -- but I chose to answer, since I felt that it was unecessary, unsolicited, and out-of-bounds for a "technical mailing list". > on the other hand, i've (tried) making a smoothwall-like distribution, > and failed miserably. it's easy to get the darn thing working, but to > have a nice GUI, to support it, to build-in automatic updating... Good for you that you got it working. Would you share your insights regarding it so that we could actually get something out of discussion aside from raising the signal:noise ratio? > > as i said before, duct-taping a linux-based solution is easy. getting > it to work is easy. everything else is not. your duct-tape solution > won't get past the front door of very many IT shops simply because > they're scared of it. they can't administer it. they don't know how to > support it. and when it can't boot, they have to call you, the local > linux geek. > Eh? What if I didn't intend the solution to be "marketed" that way? What if I intended it to be a solution for me, and might be a solution for someone else? Isn't THAT the essence of free software -- sharing your solution to the world? Or are you mixing business with free software? The analogy I get is this: "Here's a swiss army knife, with lots of bells and whistles, looks good, and has everything ELSE you need and costs $$$ -- but what what you actually need is just a friggin' knife." > so UNLESS the IT shop is already strong in UNIX to start with, they're > probably not going to buy into your solution. What's with this buying and selling? I'd probably offer them my services instead of my solution. Get the difference? Selling the service of setting up their system, as compared to selling them a system to plug-and-pray with. > > and that's what i meant by my original post --- build something that > the point-and-drool crowd will WANT to use, and THAT would be an > achievement. So the dare was for what, for show? Is it a case of "I tried, I failed... Let's see you do it..."? So is this just a pissing contest? But do remember, I am a Linux Geek Wannabe who has time to argue. -- Dean Michael C. Berris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GPG Key 0x08AE6EAC Mobile +63 928 7291459 http://mikhailberis.blogspot.com/
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