emang penginnya pegimane? ngebantah sama si ali sina? trus apa ali sina bisa denger? dari bangunan argumentasi si ali sina aja sudah menunjukkan bhw dia model makelar kodok. baca sampai akhir tulisannya bakal nyesel buang2 waktu.
apa sukar membangun argumentasi positif dari nilai2 agamanya sendiri. misalnya tulis saja golden rule karesten trus komentari bla..bla.. biarkan agama lain membandingkan dgn golden rule biarkan orang lain memilih yg terbaik. simple kan. --- On Tue, 1/29/13, Nub <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Nub <[email protected]> > Subject: [proletar] Re: Islam and the Golden Rule > To: [email protected] > Date: Tuesday, January 29, 2013, 7:05 PM > > > Haha juga > > Lucunya ga ada tanda sama sekali dia putus asa tuh. Yg putus > asa justru islam disini langsung teriak2 dan ketawa > cengengesan pdhl belum ada satupun yg ngebantah kalo memang > benar islam satu2nya agama besar yg tidak mengajarkan golden > rule. > > > > --- In [email protected], > Ballast Yo wrote: > > > > > > haha...segitu putus asanya itu ali sina. > > > mengenaskan. > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 1/29/13, Nub wrote: > > > > > > > From: Nub > > > > Subject: [proletar] Islam and the Golden Rule > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Date: Tuesday, January 29, 2013, 10:40 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kayanya bener islam satu2nya agama yg tidak > > > > mengajarkan golden rule. > > > > > > > > heck, i bet most of them dont even know what > golden rule > > > > is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Islam and the Golden Rule > > > > > > > > by Ali Sina http://www.islam-watch.org/AliSina/index.html> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 30 May, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From faithfreedom.org: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our friend Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch, the > indefatigable > > > > defender of > > > > > > > > the Western civilization, send me the following > email and > > > > asked me to > > > > > > > > answer to the criticism of a Muslim to an article > that I > > > > wrote four > > > > > > > > years ago on the incompatibility of Islam and the > Golden > > > > Rule. Here is > > > > > > > > this Muslim's rebuttal and my response to > him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recently I came across an attack on your piece on > Islam and > > > > the Golden > > > > > > > > Rule. These passages below were cited in > refutation. Any > > > > guidance you > > > > > > > > can give me on responding to this would be > greatly > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Islamic Text on the Golden Rule: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Quran: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Serve God, and join not any partners with > Him; and do > > > > good - to > > > > > > > > parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, > neighbors who are > > > > near, > > > > > > > > neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your > side, the > > > > wayfarer > > > > > > > > (ye meet), and what your right hands possess [the > slave]: > > > > For God loveth > > > > > > > > not the arrogant, the vainglorious" (Q:4:36) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (In fact the Quran goes beyond saying the Golden > Rule by > > > > stating in more > > > > > > > > than four places that "Return evil with > Kindness." > > > > (13:22, > > > > > > > > 23:96, 41:34, 28:54, 42:40) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Prophet Muhammad (pbuh): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "None of you have faith until you love for > your > > > > neighbor what you > > > > > > > > love for yourself" (Sahih Muslim) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire > and to > > > > enter > > > > > > > > Paradise…should treat the people as he > wishes to be > > > > treated." > > > > > > > > (Sahih Muslim) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "None of you truly believes until he wishes > for his > > > > brother what he > > > > > > > > wishes for himself" (Forty Hadith-Nawawi) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "None of you is a believer if he eats his > full while > > > > his neighbour > > > > > > > > hasn't anything." (Musnad) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Do unto all men as you would wish to have > done unto > > > > you; and reject > > > > > > > > for others what you would reject for > yourselves." (Abu > > > > Dawud) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Hurt no one so that no one may hurt > you." > > > > (Farewell Sermon) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There should be neither harming nor > reciprocating > > > > harm." (Ibn- > > > > > > > > Majah) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Robert, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Quran is a book of double standards. Indeed, > there are > > > > exhortations > > > > > > > > to Muslims to be kind to the poor, the traveler, > the orphan > > > > and the > > > > > > > > sick. This is to be expected. If you want to > start a > > > > religion you must > > > > > > > > preach something good or you'd not find anyone > to > > > > believe you. You > > > > > > > > cannot preach only evil. In order to attract > followers you > > > > must teach > > > > > > > > things that people like and can easily identify as > good. > > > > Once they > > > > > > > > accept you as a prophet, guru or their spiritual > guide, then > > > > you can do > > > > > > > > whatever you want and get away with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference between a true spiritual teacher > and a conman > > > > is in their > > > > > > > > consistency. There are several teachings of > Muhammad that > > > > can be > > > > > > > > compared to those of Jesus, but the teachings of > Jesus are > > > > consistent > > > > > > > > while those of Muhammad are not. Even a criminal > can give > > > > you good > > > > > > > > advises, this does not mean this criminal is a > good person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I was young there was a radio show in Iran > called A > > > > City within Our > > > > > > > > City. Every week the producer would interview a > prison > > > > inmate on death > > > > > > > > roll and the criminal would tell the story of his > life and > > > > what brought > > > > > > > > him to crime. At the end of the program the > producer would > > > > ask, whether > > > > > > > > the criminal had any advice for young people. > These > > > > criminals often had > > > > > > > > the best advises. They knew exactly the difference > between > > > > right and > > > > > > > > wrong. I recall thinking, if only someone complied > the > > > > advices of these > > > > > > > > criminals he could write the best book of > guidance. Good > > > > words are dime > > > > > > > > a dozen. If they are not accompanied by good > actions they > > > > are worthless. > > > > > > > > In fact the difference between a great man and a > conman is > > > > in how much > > > > > > > > their words and deeds differ. Even Obama came to > power by > > > > giving good > > > > > > > > talks. His entire life however was filled with > crime and > > > > chicanery. > > > > > > > > Demagogy is the domain of all charlatans and they > are good > > > > at it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We find similar good exhortations in the teachings > of Jim > > > > Jones who > > > > > > > > actually based his religion on "social > justice". > > > > He even adopted > > > > > > > > children from many races to set the example. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with the good teachings of Muhammad is > that they > > > > are > > > > > > > > reserved for fellow Muslims. When the hadith > says, > > > > "None of you > > > > > > > > [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother > what he > > > > wishes for > > > > > > > > himself,."it is talking about the fellow > Muslims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The brotherhood in Islam does not extend to > everyone. The > > > > Quran (9:23 > > > > > > > > http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.023> > > > > ) states that > > > > > > > > the believers should not take for friends and > protectors > > > > (awlia) their > > > > > > > > fathers and brothers if they love Infidelity above > Islam. In > > > > fact there > > > > > > > > are many verses that tell the Muslims to kill the > > > > unbelievers and be > > > > > > > > harsh to them. A clear example that Islam is not > based on > > > > the Golden > > > > > > > > Rule is the verse (48:29) > > > > > > > > http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/048.qmt.html#048.029> > > > > : "Muhammad > > > > > > > > is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with > him are > > > > strong against > > > > > > > > Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each > other." > > > > This is the > > > > > > > > perfect definition of fascism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are many other verses that show the > brotherhood in > > > > Islam is not > > > > > > > > universal. The non believers have no rights and > should not > > > > be treated in > > > > > > > > the same way that Muslims are to be treated. The > entire > > > > Quran is a > > > > > > > > breach of the Golden Rule. The Quran tells Muslims > to slay > > > > the > > > > > > > > unbelievers wherever they find them (2:191 > > > > > > > > http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191> > > > > ), do not > > > > > > > > befriend them (3:28 > > > > > > > > http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.028> > > > > ), fight them > > > > > > > > and show them harshness (9:123 > > > > > > > > http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.123> > > > > ), smite their > > > > > > > > heads (47:4 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.004> > > > > ), > > > > > > > > etc. Are these verses compatible with the Golden > Rule? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Islam is the only doctrine, that calls upon its > believers to > > > > do evil to > > > > > > > > others for the simple fact that they are not > believers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to Muslims it is not the Golden Rule > that defines > > > > the good and > > > > > > > > bad, it is Muhammad who does it. They believe that > what is > > > > good for > > > > > > > > Islam is the highest virtue and what is bad for > Islam is the > > > > ultimate > > > > > > > > evil. This is the definition of good and evil in > Islam. > > > > This is the > > > > > > > > ethos of all cults. From Asahara's "Aum > > > > Shinrikyo" to Jim > > > > > > > > Jones' "People's Temple"; from > Sun Myung > > > > Moon's > > > > > > > > "Unification Chruch" to David > Koresh's > > > > "Davidian > > > > > > > > Branch", the recurring theme is that the > cult's > > > > interests > > > > > > > > override the human understanding of right and > wrong. In > > > > order to advance > > > > > > > > the interest of the cult, which is regarded as the > ultimate > > > > good, > > > > > > > > everything, including lying, and even murder and > > > > assassination are > > > > > > > > permissible. The end is deemed to be so lofty that > it > > > > justifies the > > > > > > > > means. This is the same idea of fascism where the > > > > glorification of the > > > > > > > > state and the total subordination of the > individual to it > > > > are enforced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None of the verse quoted above have anything to do > with the > > > > Golden Rule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Verse 13:22 tells the believers to be patient and > generous > > > > with their > > > > > > > > money. This is what all cults demand from their > followers. > > > > The more > > > > > > > > sacrifice the cultist make the more he or she can > be > > > > manipulated. Verse > > > > > > > > 23:96 asks Muslims to repel evil, whereas the > definition of > > > > evil for > > > > > > > > Muhammad was contradicting him. Verse 41:34 is a > Meccan > > > > verse where > > > > > > > > Muhammad and his followers were the underdogs and > here he > > > > preached > > > > > > > > patience and said repel evil with good so your > enemy becomes > > > > as friend. > > > > > > > > Could he have done anything else? These orders > changed when > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > came to power. In Medina Muhammad banished and > massacred > > > > entire > > > > > > > > populations just because he suspected that they > may not be > > > > friendly to > > > > > > > > him. 28:54 is a repetition of 23:96 and 42:40 says > whoever > > > > forgives and > > > > > > > > amends, he shall have his reward from Allah. > However, > > > > Muhammad never > > > > > > > > forgave those who mocked him. As for > Muhammad's > > > > unforgiving nature > > > > > > > > it is enough to recall the fate of Oqba the man > who when > > > > Muhammad was in > > > > > > > > Mecca used to mock him and when he was captured in > the > > > > Battle of Badr, > > > > > > > > Muhammad ordered his decapitation. He ventured to > > > > expostulate, and > > > > > > > > demand why he should be treated more vigorously > than the > > > > other captives > > > > > > > > who were kept for ransom. `Because of your enmity > to God > > > > and to his > > > > > > > > Prophet,' replied Muhammad. `And my little > girl!' > > > > cried > > > > > > > > Oqba, in the bitterness of his soul, `Who will > take care of > > > > > > > > her?' â€" `Hellfire!' exclaimed > the heartless > > > > conqueror; > > > > > > > > and on the instant his victim was hewn to the > ground. > > > > `Wretch that > > > > > > > > he was!' continued Muhammad, `and persecutor! > > > > > Unbeliever in > > > > > > > > God, in his Prophet, and in his Book! I give > thanks unto > > > > the Lord that > > > > > > > > has slain you, and comforted mine eyes > thereby.'[1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you reconcile the claim that Muhammad in > his farewell > > > > sermon > > > > > > > > said, "Hurt no one so that no one may hurt > you." > > > > With the fact > > > > > > > > that in his deathbed he said, "No two > religions are > > > > allowed in > > > > > > > > Arabia" and ordered the forced conversion, > expulsion or > > > > ethnic > > > > > > > > cleansing of the Jews and Christian and the murder > of > > > > Pagans? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sura 9, which is the last words of Muhammad, > is a > > > > manifesto of > > > > > > > > discrimination and human rights abuses. This sura > alone is > > > > proof that > > > > > > > > Islam is against the Golden Rule > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first requisite to feel the pain and suffering > of others > > > > is to > > > > > > > > accept that they have feelings like us and they > also feel > > > > hurt the way > > > > > > > > we do. If we deny such feelings on others we do > not feel any > > > > remorse in > > > > > > > > abusing them. Muhammad claimed all those who > disbelieve in > > > > Allah are the > > > > > > > > worst creatures. He even said that all > non-believers will > > > > end up in hell > > > > > > > > where they will be tortured for eternity. How then > Muslims > > > > can treat > > > > > > > > equally those whom they believe to be worst than > beast and > > > > that deserve > > > > > > > > eternal punishment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing in the Quran and Hadith that > would make us > > > > believe that > > > > > > > > Islam is compatible with the Golden Rule. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Post message: [email protected] Subscribe : [email protected] Unsubscribe : [email protected] List owner : [email protected] Homepage : http://proletar.8m.com/Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proletar/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proletar/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
