Dan Allah Maha Logika --- In [email protected], item abu <itemabu@...> wrote: > > Dgn orang Islam coba ngebuktikan kebenaran Quran make "sains" gaya Bucaille, > orang Islam itu sebetulnya udah bilang bhw auloh itu tunduk pd sains. > > Abbas ini kliatannya masih punya logika, cuma sayangnya begitu Islam yg > dinilai, > logikanya ngedadak ngilang. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Abbas <abas_amin08@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tue, May 10, 2011 10:17:26 AM > Subject: [proletar] Re: Ziauddin Sardar: Between Two Masters: Qurââ¬â¢an > or > Science? > > > Justru Allah diluar semua hukum alam; tapi Allah sendiri yang mencipta segala > hukum alam ini; untuk kepentingan ciptaanNya. > > --- In [email protected], item abu <itemabu@> wrote: > > > > Kalo Quran itu berisi sains yg menunjukkan Quran itu dr auloh, berarti > > auloh > >itu > > > > tunduk pd hukum sains, hehehe... > > > > Sayangnya, orang Islam yg dungu2 itu umumnya ga bisa ngerti apa yg gua > > bilang > > ini dan konsekuensinya. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Jusfiq <kesayangan.allah@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:29:42 PM > > Subject: [proletar] Ziauddin Sardar: Between Two Masters: Qurââ¬â¢an or > > Science? > > > > > > http://ziauddinsardar.com/2011/02/quran-science/ > > > > Between Two Masters: Qur'an or Science? > > > > The headline in the Bulletin of the Islamic Medical Association of South > > Africa > > > > announces a staggering discovery. Canadian scholar confirms Quran and > > Ahadith > >on > > > > Human Embryology (1). The story tells us that a certain Dr Keith Moore, > >Chairman > > > > of the anatomy department of the University of Torontos School of Medicine, > > has > > > > discovered the happy marriage between the Islamic revelation and > > contemporary > > human developmental anatomy. I am amazed at the scientific accuracy of > > these > > statements which were made in the seventh centuryIt is quite reasonable for > > Muslims to believe that these verses are revelations from God, Moore is > >reported > > > > to have said. > > > > What has Keith Moore discovered that has excited the Muslim doctors, > > scientists > > > > and scholars so much? His paper, Highlights of human embryology in the > > Koran > >and > > > > the Hadith, was first presented at the Seventh Saudi Medical Meeting, and > > has > > since then been reprinted in a number of places (2). It simply reads modern > > biology into certain Quranic verses, describing the development of a foetus > > and > > > > illustrating them with clinical drawings and text book descriptions. For > > example, the Quranic verse, verily, we fashioned man from a small quantity > > of > > mingled liquids (Nut-fatin Imthjin) (76:2) is explained by Moore as > > referring > >to > > > > the mixture of a small quantity of sperms with the oocyte and its > > associated > > follicular fluid, or the male and female sexual secretion. The resulting > > mixed > > > drop, made up of the ovum and penetrating sperm, becomes the zygote, the > > precursor of the embryo. Similarly, explanation, for example, is given of > > the > > following verses, Verily, we created man from a product of wet earth; then > > placed him as a drop (of seed) (Nutfatun) in a safe lodging; then fashioned > > We > > > the drop a clot (alaga), then fashioned We the clot a little lump, (Mudgha) > >then > > > > fashioned We the little lump bones (Izam), then clothed the bones with > > flesh > >and > > > > then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the best > > Creator! > > (23:12-14). Reading these verses, Moore made some clay models and showed > > them > >to > > > > be similar to the description of the verses. He starts with an embryo at 28 > >days > > > > and shows that by the sixth week bones begin to form and muscles appear on > > the > > > embryo. By the seventh week the bones give a human shape to the embryo. The > >ears > > > > and eyes begin to form in the fourth week and are visible by the sixth, or > > 42 > > days after the zygote has been formed. All these developments are in > > conformity > > > > with the Quranic description, Moore tells us. > > > > So what does all this prove? Does it confirm the Divine origins of the > > Quran? > >Or > > > > does it merely tell us that the Quran is a treasure chest of scientific > > facts? > > > What is the function of the exercise? This incident throws considerable > > light > >on > > > > the state of the Muslim mind: its acute inferiority complex; its obsession > > with > > > > science and by extension with modernity; and its pathological concern with > > seeing the Quran as the end of knowledge rather than as a text that > > provides an > > > > ethical framework for the pursuit of knowledge. On the surface, such > > attempts > >to > > > > legitimise modern science by equating it with the Quran, or to prove the > > divine > > > > origins of the Quran by showing that it contains scientifically valid > > facts, > > appear harmless, indeed, even commendable exercises. However, when pursued > > on a > > > > nave basis, as is often done by Muslim scholars, such methods can be > > dangerous; > > > > and when undertaken deliberately, be it sincerely, often by non-Muslim > >scholars, > > > > it can have mischievous consequences. > > > > The inference drawn by comparing the Quran and science is two-fold: if the > >facts > > > > and theories mentioned in the Quran, which was revealed 1400 years ago, are > > supported by modern science, the Divine nature of the Quran is confirmed, > > (if > > confirmation is indeed what we are looking for); and conversely, if modern > > scientific facts and theories find a reflection in the Quran, then modern > > science must also have the same universal and eternal validity as the > > Quran. My > > > > counter arguments is simple and though it will be discussed in detail > > towards > > the end, suffice it to say now that the Quran, which is a book of guidance, > >does > > > > not need confirmation from any other source. For Muslims, it is a priori > > valid > > > and eternal. Any attempt at reading science in the Quran makes the eternal > > scripture subservient to science; and it elevates science to the level > > where it > > > > becomes the arbitrator of what is and what is not Truth. It further > > enforces > >the > > > > mythical notion that scientific theories are neutral, universal and > > eternally > > valid. Moreover, trying to read science in the allegorical, metaphorical > > and > > symbolic verses of the Quran often stretches analogical reasoning beyond > > its > > limits and leads to absurd and in some cases, to quite contradictory > >conclusions > > > > not intended by the Quran. It is apologia of the worst type. > > > > Apologetic Muslim authors trying to prove that the Quran is very scientific > > and > > > > modern often start by stating that the Quran places great emphasis, and > > indeed > > > it does, on the pursuit of knowledge and the use of reason. Some 750 > > verses, > > almost one-eighth of the Quran, in contrast to only 250 legislative verse, > > exhorts the believers to study nature, reflect, make the best use of > > reason, > > make scientific enterprise an integral part of the community life. It is > >further > > > > pointed out that the Quran mentions several scientific facts and theories, > > all > > > of which are supported by the most recent discoveries and advances. > > > > This type of apologetic literature, trying to give scientific legitimation > > to > > the Quran, goes back to the early sixties. In fact, one of the earliest > > pamphlets came out of Cairo: On Cosmic Verses in the Quran by Muhammad > > Jamaluddin El-Fandy (3). El-Fandy has a sense of religious superiority that > > manifests itself in his attempts to prove that every astronomical discovery > > and > > > > scientific theory (that is in the 1950s) has already been mentioned in the > > Quran. He considers the Quran as the best example of scientific expression > > (an > > > unsuitable claim as the ideal form of scientific expression is a > > mathematical > > equation; and there certainly are no equations in the Quran). Thus, from > > almost > > > > any Quranic verse referring to any astronomical phenomenon, El-Fandy can > > draw > > modern astronomical parallels and comparisons. For example, from the verse, > > all > > > > is He who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see, and > > neither > > > can the night outstrip the day, and each revolve in an orbit, al-Fandy > > draws > >the > > > > following inference: > > > > If we consider the sky a name given to anything which is over our heads, > > then > >it > > > > will surely mean the entire universe which surrounds us and which begins > > with > > the space around the earth followed by the planets, the sun and other stars > > found in the depth of space, in our galaxy or in other galaxies. All these > > heavenly bodies move in their orbits. This is the sky. It is created by > > Allah > > and each body in the space is similar to the brick in its lofty structure. > > All > > > these heavenly bodies split one after the other and are held in their > > relative > > > positions by centrifugal force and universal gravity. The gravity and this > > centrifugal force, produced by rotation in semi-circular orbits or > > ellipses, > > could be treated as actually built pillars. Although we may not detect such > > forces with our eyes, yet that does not mean that they are not there in any > > case, since we can measure and give their specifications correctly. If > > anyone > >of > > > > us is granted a suitable sense in addition to the normal ones we have, he > > will > > > be able to feel these (tubes of forces) exactly as we can feel any material > >body > > > > with our normal senses. (4). > > El-Fandy does not stop here. He goes on to argue that the atmosphere can be > > regarded as a pillar and that light itself is like a pillar, with the > > colours > >of > > > > the > > > > spectrum being minor pillars! In the other verses of the Quran, El-Fandy > > finds > > > evidence for the creation of red giants, white dwarfs, existence of ether > > (?), > > > the evolution of the planets and the big bang theory. And there is more: > >science > > > > supports the Quranic claim, writes al-Fandy, that life exists on other > > planets. > > > > After quoting numerous verse, including, And they Lord best knows those who > > are > > > > in the heavens and the earth and to Him submit whosoever is in the heavens > > and > > > the earth, he ventures to describe what aliens may look like (here it is > > not > > clear whether he is drawing inferences from the Quran or science): > > > > If we try to define the shape or form which developed races living outside > > our > > > planet will have, we should, in this case, and without inviting > > complication s > > > act on the assumption that nature has made no dissimilarity whatsoever in > > its > > method. Accordingly, such creatures, in their attempt to make good show, > > share > > > with us the following: > > > > 1. The bodys reliance on an inner osteology made of hard material. > > 2. The existence of a main centre for nerves (the brain) which communicates > >with > > > > various parts of the body directives (thenerves). > > 3. The best shelter for the brain which exists inside a safe movable organ > > either in the fore or the top part of the body > > 4. Creatures dependence upon legs used in motion. > > 5. The existence of a mouth for speaking and feeding (5) > > > > All this is not just bad science. It makes a mockery of the Quran. However, > > compared to many others, El-Fandy is quite sane. Azizul Hasan Abbasi, a > > Pakistani neuropsychiatrist, manages to find in the Quran modern cures for > > diabetes, tuberculosis, stomach ulcers, rheumatism, arthritis, blood > > pressure, > > > asthma, dysentery and paralysis! (6). > > > > In recent years, this rather banal comparative approach to science and > > Islam > >has > > > > been legitimised by the French surgeon, Maurice Bucaille. His book, The > > Bible, > > > the Quran and Science (7) is essential reading for Muslims with larger than > >life > > > > inferiority complexes and has been translated into almost every Muslim > >language, > > > > from Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu to Indonesian. Bucaille sets out to do > > a > > detailed and thorough analysis of the holy scriptures in the light of > > modern > > knowledge. He focuses on four topics: astronomy, the earth, animal and > >vegetable > > > > kingdom and human reproduction. The methodology followed is the well > >established > > > > one of quoting the Quranic verse and then giving a scientific commentary on > > them. Bucaille tries to be more objective and takes pains to point out that > > the > > > > Quran contains scientific information that was not available at the time of > > revelation and, in fact, some of the information contained in it is > > contrary to > > > > what people believed at the time of the Prophet. After going through the > > standard motions of examining verses about the orbit of the moon and the > > sun, > > the water cycle, the reproduction procedure, he concludes: > > > > The Quran most definitely did not contain a single proposition at variance > > with > > > > the most firmly established modern knowledge, nor did it contain any of the > > ideas current at the time on the subjects it describes. Furthermore, > > however, a > > > > large number of facts are mentioned in the Quran which were not discovered > >until > > > > modern times. So many in fact, that on November 9, 1976, the present author > > was > > > > able to read before the French Academy of Medicine a paper on the > > Physiological > > > > and Embyological data in the Quran. The data like many others on differing > > subjects constituted a veritable challenge to human explanation in view of > > what > > > > we know about the history of the various sciences through the ages. Modern > > mans > > > > findings concerning the absence of scientific error are therefore in > > complete > > agreement with the Muslims exegetes conception of the Quran as a Book of > > Revelation. It is a consideration which implies that God could not express > > an > > erroneous idea. > > > > The bible, of course, did not meet the stringent criteria of modern > > knowledge > > and the clear-cut conclusion of Bucaille is that it is impossible not to > > admit > > > the existence of scientific errors in the Bible. However, all this simply > >states > > > > the obvious with a sense of real discovery: the Muslim belief that the > > Quran, > >as > > > > the Word of Allah, cannot contain any errors and that the Bible, as it > > exists > > today, is not true Divine revelation. > > > > But where Bucaille stops, Bucaillism takes over. A number of recent studies > >have > > > > tried to look further for scientific facts and theories in the Quran. Thus > > Shamsul Haq, for example, manages to find the seeds of the theory of > > relativity > > > > and quantum ma=echanics in the Quran and produces Quranic evidence to > > support > > the Big Bang Theory (The Quran and Modern Cosmology Science and Technology > > in > > the Islamic World 1 (1) 47-52 (1983). M Manzoor-I-Khuda manages to find the > > theory of the development of the biosphere, the water cycles of life on > > earth > >in > > > > the Quran (Creation and the Cosmos in Islamic Scientific Thought and Muslim > > Achievements in Science, proceedings of the International Conference on > > Science > > > > in Islamic Polity, Islamabad, 1983, Vol 1, p96-113). Moore notwithstanding, > > the > > > > entire field of embryology has been discovered several times in the Quran. > > > > After all this scientific data and support for numerous theories, it seems > > that > > > > the Quran has not left anything out. And to enforce the point that > > scientific > > equations are not missing from the Book of Guidance, Rashad Khalifas > >statistical > > > > analysis (Miracle of the Quran Islamic Productions International, St. > > Louis, > > Missouri, 1973) even provides that. Khalifa focuses on Quranic initials > > letters > > > > which appear at the beginning of some surahs (chapters) and feeds the > > frequency > > > > of occurrence of each letter into a computer. The letters are : Alif (A), > > Ha > > (H), Ra , Sin (S), Sad (S), Ta (T), Ayn (A), Qaf (Q), Kaf (K), Lam (L), Mim > >(M), > > > > Nun (N), Ha (H), and Ya (Y). His additional data includes the total number > > of > > letters in each of 114 Surahs of the Quran and the number of verse in each > > Surah. He manipulates the data to calculate the percentage value and > > average > > frequency of occurrence for each of the 14 letters in each verse of the > > Quran. > > > For the multi-lettered Quranic initials, such as Ta Ha, Ta Sin and Ya Sin, > > he > > calculates the absolute frequency of occurrence, percentage of the > > frequency > > value for each of the 114 Surahs, and the average occurrence per verse for > > each > > > > of the multi-lettered Quranic initials in each sura. Finally he arranges > > all > >the > > > > Surahs of the Quran in the ascending order of the absolute frequency of > > occurrence of each Quranic initial and percentage frequency of occurrence > > for > > each of the 14 sets of Quranic initials. What does Khalifa find? That the > > chapters which begin with the Quranic initials also contain the highest > > frequency of the specific letters used at the beginning of the Surah. For > > example, Surah Qaf contains the highest frequency of the letter qaf than > > any > > other Surah of the Quran or there is not one Surah in the Quran where all > > three > > > > values of nun are higher than their counterparts in the non-initialled > > Surah, > > al-Qqalam. The analysis for Quranci initials Alif Lam Mim which occur in > > four > > Makkan and two Medinan Surahs shows that the four Makkan Surahs are > > superior to > > > > all Makkan Surahs in the overall frequency of Alif Lam Mim. > > > > So what can we conclude from this? In Khalifa's own words: > > "The Qur'anic initials as a whole have shown us that every word, indeed > > every > > letter, in the Qur'an was carefully calculated. The Qur'an itself states > > this > > fact very clearly in the first verse of Surah HudPlacement of the Qur'anic > > initials in their specific locations proves the existence of advance > > knowledge > > > of the distribution pattern of the alphabet throughout the Qur'an. No one > > can > > claim that such advance knowledge is attainable by man; any man. > > > > To translate this into physical, tangible evidence, the computer was asked > > to > > calculate the number of manipulations one should master in order to write a > > mathematically controlled book such as the Qur'an. The composition of the > >Qur'an > > > > involves 114 chapters where 14 alphabet letters were distributed according > > to > > specific combinations. According to the well known mathematical formula, > > the > > number of manipulations involved in this case equals 11414This value, > > 626,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,(626b septillions) is certainly beyond > > the > > > capacity of any creature, including today's most sophisticated computers. > > When > > > we look at this number we can readily appreciate the divine statement in > > Surah > > > Al-Isra (The Night Journey), verse 88 ââ¬" Say, if all the humans and all > > the > >jinns > > > > banded together in order to produce a verse like this, they will surely > > fail. > > Furthermore, this is the number of controlled manipulations of a specific > > distribution pattern of the alphabet, without placing them in useful > > sentences. > > > > To place these mathematically distributed alphabetic letters in useful > >sentences > > > > is another complete job" > > > > On the basis of his analysis, Khalifa can also prove that the present order > > of > > > recording the Qur'anic chapters is divinely inspired, the locations of > > revelation of the Qur'anic chapters, whether Makkan or Medinan, can be > > proved > >to > > > > be correct, the Qur'an's specific way of dividing each Surah into verses is > > divinely prescribed ("the average per verse value is a highly significant > > property throughout the Qur'an"), that the opening statement "Bismillah > > r-Rahmani-r-Rahim" (In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful) is > > an > > > integral part of each Surah, except Surah Al-Tawba and even the particular > > way > > > of spelling certain words in the Qur'an has a mathematical significance. > > > > All this adds nothing to the sum of our knowledge. It does, however equate > > Qur'anic truth with the mathematical `truth' and makes the Qur'an appear > > more > > and more like a contemporary data-base. From here, it appears, the next > > logical > > > > stop ought to be to present the Qur'an as a scientific text book. And > > Afzalur > > Rahman (Qur'anic Sciences, The Muslim schools Trust, London 1981) has > > obliged > >us > > > > with exactly that. Rahman, whose knowledge of science as well as his > > understanding of the Qur'an is on a par with a child at nursery school: > > "The > > Qur'an provides a complete picture of the material universe and what is > > beyond > > > in a scientific and rational manner, appealing to the scientific and > > rational > > manner, appealing to the scientific mind as well as to the ordinary > > layman." He > > > > finds almost every secondary school science subject, from heat, light, > > sound to > > > > even electricity, in the Qur'an and presents them as a long list of subject > > headings with appropriate Qu'ranic quotations. The book is meant to be used > > in > > > schools (and probably is) and prepare the next generation of Muslims > >scientists! > > > > The only thing now left for Bucaillism is to be institutionalised and > >introduced > > > > in the school curricula. Muhammad Abdus Sami and Muslim Sajjad (Planning > > Curricula for Natural Sciences: The Islamic Perspective, Institute of > > Policy > > Studies, Islamabad, 1983) have produced a plan to accomplish this goal. > > Every > > chapter of every textbook on physics, chemistry, biology and Zoology should > > contain the appropriate verse from the Qur'an. But unlike Rahman, the two > > Pakistani scientists foresee some problems: for example, how are we going > > to > > treat the theory of evolution? "This theory seeks to provide essentially a > > rational belief in God." Maybe there are, after all, a few things in > > science > > that do not tally with what the Qur'an tells us! > > > > Bucaillism appeals particularly to the older generation of Muslim > > scientists, > > scholars and intellectuals because of its psychological message value. It > > reinforces their faith in the Qur'an and Islam on the one hand, and > > confirms > > their belief in the superiority and universal validity of western science, > > on > > the other. Their naivete is well reflected by Candide: "all is well in this > >best > > > > of all possible worlds." > > > > However, the dangers inherent in Bucaillism are very grave. There is the > >obvious > > > > fact that it generates a strangely dumbfounding theology ââ¬" as all > > scientific > > > knowledge is contained in the Qur'an, simply studying the Qur'an from a > > scientific perspective will reveal everything and lead to new theories and > > discoveries. While the Qur'an obviously contains some passing references to > > natural facts, it is by no means a textbook of science. It is a book of > > guidance. It provides motivation and only motivation, for the pursuit of > > knowledge. Knowledge begins with the Qur'an and does not end with it. > > > > But, more importantly, by equating the Qur'an with science, Bucaillism > > elevates > > > > science to the realm of the sacred and makes Divine Revelation subject to > > the > > verification of western science. Apart form the fact that the Qur'an needs > > no > > justification from modern science, Bucaillism opens the Qur'an to the > > counter > > argument of Popper's criteria of refutation: would the Qur'an be proved > > false > > and written off just as Bucaille writes off the Bible, if a particular > > scientific fact does not tally with it or if a particular fact mentioned in > > the > > > > Qur'an is refuted by modern science? And what if a particular theory, which > > is > > > "confirmed" by the Qur'an and is in vogue today is abandoned tomorrow for > > another theory that presents an opposite picture? Does that mean that the > >Qur'an > > > > is valid today but will not be valid tomorrow? > > > > Moreover, by raising science to the level of sacred knowledge, Bucaillism > > effectively undermines any criticism of science. Because the pursuit of > > knowledge is so strongly emphasised in the Qur'an, most Muslim scientists > > already possess a sense of reverence towards modern science. Bucaillism > > takes > > this reverence to a new level: a whole generation of Muslim scientists do > > not > > just accept all science as Good and True, but attack anyone who shows a > >critical > > > > or sceptical attitude towards science. Furthermore, the belief in a > > universally > > > > beneficial science leads to a pestiferous kind of fatalism: since science > > is > > universal and for the benefit of all humankind, it will eventually make its > > way > > > > to Muslim societies and serve their needs! > > > > Science is not the pursuit of Truth and its "discoveries", and "facts" do > > not, > > > and cannot have the same validity as the verse of the Qur'an. Science is a > > problem solving enterprise: it is a method, a technique, for solving > > problems > > within a given paradigm and worldview. Just as Abdus Sami and Sajjad find > > that > > > the theory of evolution is a rational attempt to undermine belief in God, a > > great deal in the modern system of science is an exercise in control and > > domination of nature and men. When Bacon said that nature yields her > > secrets > > under torture, he made torture and suppression an integral and legitimate > > part > > > of modern science. Science, as it exists and is practised today, is > > designed to > > > > keep a particular culture and its worldview dominant. Reading the verses of > > the > > > > Qur'an into modern science is not going to change its essential character > > and > > style. > > > > That there is something magically objective and neutral about the > > Scientific > > Method is a cruel hoax; and bias-free observation is a myth. Nothing "out > >there" > > > > can be perceived without filtering it through our worldview and culture. > > Scientists too often modify their observation with their own ideas and > > prejudices, values and norms of their society. Not just observation but > > experimentation too cannot be made in a cultural vacuum, but have meaning > > and > > significance solely in the framework of a theory itself set in the > > conceptual > > picture of a worldview. Putting a theory into a mathematical code does not > >strip > > > > the value content of a proposition of modern science. On the contrary, the > > nature of mathematics is such that its application to the world through > > science > > > > is purely fortuitous. Mathematical propositions, including the geometric > > propositions of Euclid, are a priori analytic ââ¬" that is to say, that > > their > > status is determined merely by analysing the term of the proposition. That > > one > > > plus one equals two can be determined as conforming to the principle that > > one > > plus one means two. That some theories can be codified in mathematical > > expression is a matter of scientific convenience. The laws of nature are > > not > > expressed in mathematical formulae, in indelible ink across the heavens; > > they > > are manufactured in ballpoints in laboratories and institutes. > > > > The fact that some of these manufactured laws and theories agree with what > > the > > > Qur'an says is not in itself of any significance. It is a non-statement. > > The > > Qur'an promotes the pursuit of knowledge within a framework of values: it > > is > > these values which should be the focus of our attention and which should > > shape > > > our scientific activity. Only by turning these values into a living reality > > can > > > > we truly be honest to the Qur'an and fulfil our obligations towards it. > > > > References > > > > 1. April 1985. > > 2. Including, Africa Events May 1985. > > 3. The Supreme Council of Islamic Affairs, 1961. > > 6. The Quran and Mental Hygiene, Karachi, undated. > > 7. Seghers, Paris, 1976; and North American Trust Publication, > > Indianapolis, > > 1978. > > > > From > > This essay appeared in Inquiry Vol 2 No 8 37-41 August 1985 > > Share > > 468 ad > > Follow Us on FacebookFollow Us on TwitterFollow Us on RSS > > > > Contact ZiauddinSardar > > > > Recent Posts > > > > Welcome to postnormal times > > The Idea of Justice > > Displaced Homes > > Reading The Qur'an > > 367 > > > > Sign up to our newsletter. > > Email: > > > > Copyright é 2009 > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
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