Long, slightly ansty post.  Read no further unless you are keen for a bit 
of verbal boxing...

On 01:36 AM 23/07/2002 -0700, JaMi Smith said:
>I find it odd Ian that you like the way that Protel zooms in and out without
>"centering about the cursor", like every other cad package I have ever seen,
>and even defend it, but you went ahead and wrote a "server" to fix the
>problem anyway, and then go on to say "no bug here"

I got tired of you complaining about it when you first joined the forum 
(and began slagging the software and those of us with different points of 
view) and showed you that you can have it any way you like.  I don't use my 
server and it is not a bug fix in my mind.

>Granted, you and some others may have actually grown accustomed to the weird
>behaviour of Protel when it zooms in and out, and actually like or prefer
>it, but that doesn't make it "intuitive" or "natural".

Disagree. having to re-find and refocus on a new location is unnecessary 
and unnatural. At least I think I could come up with a legitimate argument 
to that effect.  Please stop imposing your preference on me and calling me 
non-intuitive or unnatural. Please recognise that it is just a simple 
little preference of yours.  Reentering on zoom is *not* a natural law.

>For those that don't understand what I am talking about, it is what I call
>the "anti-intuitive" manner in which Protel zooms in or out on an area near
>the right or left border of the display area. For example: place your cursor
>near the right border of your display area and zoom out (PgDn) three times,
>and you will still find yourself right up against the right border of the
>display area, although you will not see one single bit of real estate to the
>right of your boarder, since it remains the same. Now zoom in (PgUp) 3
>times, and you still never get past the original right border of the
>display. If you want to zoom or pan anywhere to the right, then you to have
>to place your cursom near the left side of the screen and then zoom out and
>then place your cursor back to the right and zoom in. Thats why I call it
>"anti-intuitive", you have to go left to get right, and it is simply not
>something I have ever seen in any other CAD application. This is just poor
>design, plain and simple.
>Yes Ian, I could take my fingers off the PgUp and PgDn keys and my eyes off
>of the screen to look for the Home key, but why do I have to take my eyes
>off what I am doing and hit one extra key. Why can't Protel just be like the
>rest of the world on this one.

Coz - it is better - at least quite a number of us think so and there is a 
basis for this preference.  I may have a large screen or multiple 
screens.  I prefer the location I am dealing with remain in the same spot 
on the screen so I do not have to find it again and refocus.  It is all 
about speed.  I, think that the other CAD packages have it wrong and protel 
has it right from a speed and human computer interaction (HCI) point of 
view.  Having to find the edit point and re-focus is a slow down.  I am an 
expert user - I want the package to be as fast as possible.  This is one 
little example of how I think it is faster.

Most of the time I am only paging up or down one step as I try to 
rout/place in a specific region.  On the rarer occasions that zoom in or 
out a long way an occasional "home" is not issue for me.

>You may like it, but it is "non-standard" to say the least.

The key to progress is questioning the status quo.  I am not interested in 
standards if there is a demonstrably better way of working.  Standards have 
their place but generally for beginner users.  Expert users are almost 
always more interested in shortcuts and speed-ups.

>Where again do I go to get the little drivers / servers you wrote to fix the
>The real problem here Ian is that I shouldn't have to ask you for your
>drivers / servers, Protel should fix the problem, or even considering that
>you like it the way it is, they should offer the "standard" zoom in and out
>for us abnormal folks who learned on everyone elses systems.
>You may not condescend to calling it a bug, but it is unquestionably a
>Protel "quirk".

Yep - an example of the programmers considering how to speed our work 
maybe? Or maybe a historical artefact. A quirk, yep.  Bug, No.

>Is this what happens when you write software applications "down under" when
>everyone at Microsoft in Belview Washington is at home in bed and cannot
>answer your technical questions about the software?

Stupid comment.

> >
> > >3. ) I am also betting that Protel's "Print Dialogue" box is also still
> > >backwards as compared to the rest of the world (For those that don't
> > >consider the way that Protel handles printing a bug, go play with Adobe
> > >Acrobat (or any other Windows Application) for a while then come back to
> > >Protel to see how it it is not done right).
> >
> > You are not being clear here.  What do you see as the issue?  I can see
> > differences between printing in all sorts of applications.  What exactly
> > you not like in Protels Sch and PCB printing?
> >
>Protel has an OK butten in the same location in it's print dialog box as
>every on else in the world has the PRINT buttom.

I agree with you on this one.


> > >Also, show me one other major
> > >application in the Windows world that has a Print Icon on a toolbar that
> > >invokes a Printer Dialog Box that will not print anything at all, as the
> > >in the PCB 3-D View (It only does printer setup).
> >
> > Minor issue.  We know that the 3D viewer, as it stands, is a premature,
> > inadequate, bit of marketing fluff. Hardly worth commenting on it.
> >
>Minor issue!  then why couldn't you solve it for me when I posted to this
>forum and said that I couldn't get the PRINT to work in 3D. Go look in the
>Marketing fluff or not, the PRINT button in the dialog box that appears when
>you click on the Printer Icon on the Toolbar DOES NOT WORK - PLAIN AND

Yep - it is a bug. The problems you had with anyone on this forum not 
knowing how to answer your problem reflects the disdain most of us have for 
it and hence never use it.  Yep it does seem like a bug - the toolbar icon 


As for Sch PCB command commonality...

maybe there are some things that differ - but they do have to reflect the 
differences in the actual entities.  I would *hate* a package that tried to 
be so common across the various editors that it sacrificed 
functionality.  But i do have a gripe about Sch and PCB differences - I 
want a J-C (Jump-Component) in Sch like in PCB. But that is about the only 
difference that I regularly hiccup on - oh, and right-click dragging in Sch.

> > JaMi, fess up, cobber - you were beta testing (just like I was).  Stop
> > playing silly games.  You know exactly what has been fixed and what
> >
> > Ian Wilson
> >
>You know Ian, this is interesting. I really didnt read this last paragraph
>closely the first time thru, before starting to respond to you.
>No, I am not playing games. No, I really dont know what's been fixed and
>what hasn't.
>No, I really wasn't beta testing,

Heh!  Are you saying you did not sign the NDA and you did not participate 
in the beta?

>although I figured you were.
>This really is a bad sign, isn't it. What you're really telling me is that
>these and many other things have not been fixed.
>Thats just not what I really wanted to hear.

I said nothing of the sort. Do you jump to conclusions so easily when doing 
engineering design? I would think not.  Please read what I wrote and not 
what you thought I wrote.  I simply said that you were in as good a 
position to know what has changed as anyone since you have been involved in 
the beta program.  There is nothing in this statement about DXP or what is 
included/fixed or otherwise.  Simply a call for you to be a little more 
transparent.  The DXP NDA does not prohibit people admitting they are 
involved in the beta (I just re-read it), though for one reason or another 
most of us have not bellowed the fact.

Ian Wilson

* Tracking #: FD4726C3BC5C954F91C372FB57B71A9EC7CDD43B

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