Dear slau, thanks again for your extremely patience and polite.
I'm reffering about dragging files from the clip list.
Best,
Juan.
-----Original Message-----
From: Slau Halatyn
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 9:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: discovery about nudge value
Hi Juan,
I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused about your current question. I'm not sure
exactly what you're trying to either ask or say. Dragging files from the
Clip list (or Region list, as it is sometimes called) is certainly possible
with VoiceOver but it's a multi-step process that is not at all efficient
and, frankly, sometimes it just inexplicably doesn't seem to work. That type
of drag and drop is somewhat different from dragging and dropping within the
timeline.
It's the action of dragging and dropping within the timeline that is
essentially impossible for a blind user much in the same way throwing darts
is not accessible. That doesn't mean a blind user couldn't conceivably throw
a dart but what would be the point? If a blind person is told that the
bullseye is exactly 5 and a half feet from the floor and exactly 8 and three
quarter feet from the left wall and if the blind dart thrower could punch in
a number to have the dart automatically be put at those coordinates, what's
the point of throwing it? We have a few methods to edit and position regions
with sample accuracy through keyboard shortcuts.
A sighted user can zoom out of a timeline, see the region they've just
highlighted, look down the timeline and see a space where the copied or
dragged region should go. They can see the timeline and, in general terms
see the approximate time where the region needs to go. They still have to
position it more precisely once it's in the general vicinity. They have to
zoom in, reposition the region, possibly use the grid or just audition the
region in context to see if it's in the right place. Yes, there is an
advantage to be able to see an overview of the timeline but that's something
that a blind user will never have the ability to do. It's simply the nature
of being blind, not being able to see what would take a thousand words to
describe.
Now, here's an example of a real advantage is for a sighted user: If you
needed to select non-contiguous files from several tracks and move them all
at the same time. For example if you had a region on track 1 from 3 seconds
to 10 seconds, a region on track 2 from 4 seconds to 9 seconds and a region
on track 3 from zero seconds to twenty seconds, a sighted user could use the
grabber tool and select those three regions which appear on three tracks at
different times by Shift-clicking with the grabber tool and, in one motion,
drag them to a different part of the timeline or nudge them or whatever.
Again this is something that a blind user simply cannot do. Let me say this,
however, I've been using a digital audio workstation since 1994 and I've
never had to perform the aforementioned action, ever, not even once. That
doesn't mean that it might not come up some time in the future. I doubt it
will but, if it does, I'll take more time and do each track separately.
I hope that clarifies a few things.
Best regards,
Slau
On Sep 27, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Juan Pablo <[email protected]> wrote:
Slau, sorry for my lack of knoledge. But what's the way to drag and drop
from the clip list? When I talked about drag and drop, I'm reffering to
your second part of your message.
Best, Juan.
-----Original Message----- From: Slau Halatyn
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 3:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: discovery about nudge value
Hi Juan,
I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. Drag and drop is just something a
blind person cannot do. How would you propose this would work? Cut, copy
and paste is perfectly fine in addition to nudging and spotting. What
can't you do in the timeline with drag and drop that you can't do with the
commands I mentioned? Now, if you're talking about dragging from the Clips
list into a timeline, then yes, there needs to be a more elegant solution
th an what we currently have. I can see that possibly being implemented in
the future but that's a matter of introducing a new way, or at least an
alternative way, of performing specific actions. This would take more
resources and more supporting arguments.
Slau
On Sep 27, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Juan Pablo <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi, Slau. Is fact: protools is advancing to a fully accessible soft. but
in my opinion, with the time line not accessible, We're lossing at least
50% of this powerful tool. Yes, there are lots of sortcuts that made this
tings in a diferent way. but has the hability to drag and dropp, would be
a big jump. I hope in pt12 we've good news on this.
best, Juan.
-----Original Message----- From: Slau Halatyn
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 1:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: discovery about nudge value
Folks,
One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility
with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier
versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could
at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the
custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the
new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is
important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save
your ass at some point, guaranteed.
well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we
could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection
and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I
submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items
like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably.
Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery,
for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a
bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on
the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge
cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT
accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled
"Show Grid Lines" (which is either selected or not), "Grid Controls
button" and "Nudge Controls button" Clicking on the first button toggles
its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline.
Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats
and default values as mentioned earlier.
Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value
field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I
needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought
up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list
contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It
contained a text field labeled "Nudge" and a numeric field labeled "Nudge
value." I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment,
having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting
with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was
nested in the "Nudge Controls button." Well, of course, a VoiceOver user
would never think to interact with a button because that's not the
function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply
navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply
interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged
contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the
hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting
interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly.
Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise
you, you will at some point, use the Item Chooser to get to the Nudge
Value numeric field, click once and type the custom value, hit Return and
be on your way.
This is an issue of nomenclature mostly but also the non-standard manner
in which a control was defined. It's really not a button but a group of
controls or a cluster, if you will. So, it's confusing until you know
what it truly is. I'm explaining this so that, when others ask, more
people on the list know about this quirk. That said, I'm relieved that
the issue of access to the nudge value was addressed, albeit in a
non-standard way, because it's truly one of the quality-of-life issues
that kept me from moving to Pro Tools 11 full time. For me, this was a
big one. There are a few others that are being addressed in beta that
will be resolved soon, I'm sure.
Anyway, just sharing the info.
Slau
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