Long-term stability versus those crunchy granola eating sandal wearing hippy community projects wasn’t, to quote the OP, a “level of comfort”. [timbot-wink]
—Paul > On Dec 11, 2014, at 5:01 PM, Bert JW Regeer <[email protected]> wrote: > > Are you implying that Zope wasn’t a success? :P > >> On Dec 11, 2014, at 14:44, Paul Everitt <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> One thing to note on that criteria…if one were to list the 3 biggest Python >> web frameworks, they aren’t produced by a company. In fact, there was once >> this big Python open source web framework that was managed by a company with >> big money behind them... >> >> —Paul >> >>> On Dec 11, 2014, at 2:41 PM, pyramidX <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> That makes sense, thanks. >>> >>> With many big open-source projects there's a company backing it (e.g. >>> Ansible there's a company providing support and services for the >>> open-source product), and though there's no guarantee that it'll stick >>> around, knowing there's a commercial incentive for a company to continue to >>> maintain the project actively does bring a level of comfort. >>> >>> Are there companies offering professional support or consulting for Pyramid? >>> >>> On the project site there's 'Who's using Pylons Project software', didn't >>> realize large public-facing sites like digg and cars.com are using Pyramid. >>> Is there a more thorough list of these sites available? Or perhaps you >>> might personally know of some other large public-facing websites that are >>> currently using Pyramid extensively? >>> >>> No worries about Pyramid's future, but it never hurts to get more knowledge. >>> >>> On Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:28:25 PM UTC+1, Chris Rossi wrote: >>> Ok, less snarky version--one doesn't know the future, but the community >>> around Pyramid is cohesive enough that it should endure for some time to >>> come. Enough businesses are using it in their core infrastructure that >>> it's unlikely the community would just shrivel up overnight. The reason >>> there are so few features slated for future release is because Pyramid, >>> itself, is starting to feel finished. It does what it does really well and >>> we don't feel that we're wanting for features. The bulk of new development >>> is around layers on top or add-ons for Pyramid--projects that contribute to >>> the Pyramid ecosystem, but not necessarily to Pyramid core. Because, >>> really, core already has most of the features anyone wants at that layer. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Steve Piercy <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Pyramid is "as is". No warranty. >>> https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/blob/master/LICENSE.txt >>> >>> If you want people to maintain something for you indefinitely, then you >>> need to make an agreement or contract for services. Sorry to be snarky, >>> but come on! Pyramid is a free and open source project, and expectations >>> need to align with that reality. >>> >>> --steve >>> >>> >>> On 12/11/14 at 3:12 AM, [email protected] (pyramidX) pronounced: >>> >>> I love Pyramid and my only thought is will it be maintained indefinitely? >>> Say if the few main committers move on is there some sponsor who will step >>> in? (I have similar thoughts about SQL Alchemy which my Pyramid app uses >>> heavily.) My other thought is whether there is a roadmap for the future of >>> Pyramid. It's good to know the project has a plan of where it wants to take >>> things. I see https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/blob/master/TODO.txt#L116 >>> but there's only one new feature listed for each release like 1.6, 1.7, etc. >>> >>> On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 7:19:26 AM UTC+1, lostdorje wrote: >>> >>> +1 to all the responses regarding there being Python and Ruby developers vs >>> there being Django and Rails developers (and even Wordpress >>> developers...*cough*...vs PHP developers). I got my degree in Computer >>> Science, so I just consider myself a developer, period. The point of these >>> narrowly scoped dev types is well taken. I wouldn't want to hire anyone >>> whose skill set is so tightly tied to a framework. I'd guess in most cases >>> such developers wouldn't 'scale' well in a growing startup. >>> >>> And +1 to Torsten's comment about Python, rather than just Pyramid itself, >>> having a user base with strong programming roots beyond just web >>> development within a framework. >>> >>> And +1 to Jonathan. Totally agree with you on: Lower-level frameworks like >>> Flask, Pyramid, etc tend to attract developers more interested-in or >>> experienced-with the language, the user pool is smaller and self-selecting. >>> This has both advantages and disadvantages, but in terms of getting the >>> best talent on board, it seems the best talent would definitely be more >>> interested in/experienced with the 'lower level' frameworks. >>> >>> Thanks for all the insightful responses, it helps me confirm I still >>> believe Pyramid is the right choice for the startup we are building out. >>> Regardless of technology stack, we will only being hiring *real* developers >>> and not devs who can hide behind a framework as a crutch, obfuscating the >>> depth of their real technical knowledge. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Jonathan Vanasco <[email protected] >>> <javascript:>> wrote: >>> >>> I'll preface this by saying that I'm biased towards Pyramid, and when I >>> have to program - I prefer it. I begrudgingly program though - I'm usually >>> on the business/product/management side. But in the past 3 years: I've >>> been working extensively with Pyramid on a personal project, was CTO of a >>> large media company that had a re-deploy onto Rails in-progress (a mistake >>> that was scrapped), and was the Product/Tech advisor to medium sided media >>> company that was on Django. >>> >>> If you're doing a "Startup" that is in any way unique or looking to scale, >>> I would only consider doing it in Pyramid. If it's going to be >>> essentially a lot of basic functionality, something off-the-shelf (blog, >>> e-commerce) and nothing really proprietary or large scale, then >>> Django/Rails would be perfect. Aside from the language difference, Rails >>> and Django are basically the same (there are some differences in approach, >>> but both are very high level frameworks). If you are a building a one-off >>> project, an advertising campaign, are a dev-shop working for a client's >>> time-limited event, etc -- then Django/Rails are what you want, and Pyramid >>> would be overkill. >>> >>> Pyramid / Pylons is a very low-level framework. You'll spend more time >>> and energy getting some basic things done at the outset, but you won't ever >>> be constrained by the Framework or Data Model, and your velocity will >>> improve or stay consistent as you need to pivot or scale. You can make >>> large changes with little work, and easily introduce "quick fixes" if >>> needed. >>> >>> Django is very high level. It's so high-level, that most people I know >>> consider it more like editing configuration files than writing Python. >>> You'll be off to a quick start in basic functionality, but quickly feel >>> constrained by a fairly rigid API and the need to do things the Django >>> way. Your velocity will plummet as the project moves onwards. It can be >>> exceedingly hard to implement a "quick fix", because the framework is so >>> tightly integrated. Adding new functionality and addressing bottlenecks >>> can be aggravating. >>> >>> Rails is basically the same as Django, except it's in Ruby. >>> In terms of hiring... from firsthand experience it is incredibly hard to >>> find *good* Django/Ruby developers. This has less to do with the concept >>> of a "Developers Market" that others noted (which is true) than it has to >>> do with the overall talent pool. While there are a lot of really >>> brilliant Python/Ruby developers in the Django/Ruby community, I've found >>> that the majority the community are Django/Ruby developers -- NOT >>> Python/Ruby developers. These people tend to be pretty unfamiliar with the >>> core language and just know the framework -- usually through a HowTo book >>> or some sort of bootstrap class. Bad developers flock to the buzzwords: to >>> Java, then to PHP, and then to Django/Rails. The result is that the >>> signal-to-noise ratio in the Django/Rails applicant pool is ridiculously >>> low -- and you can spend months trying to source candidates worth bringing >>> in to an interview -- only to end up paying a premium for bad developers >>> who simply know the stack. I've had Rails/Django devs with 2 years >>> professional experience demand higher compensation than developers with 10 >>> years of work experience who were experts in a field. It's a ridiculous >>> premium. >>> >>> Lower-level frameworks like Flask, Pyramid, etc tend to attract developers >>> more interested-in or experienced-with the language, the user pool is >>> smaller and self-selecting. This is simply a correlated effect to the >>> popularity of the frameworks. So you might identify 100 candidates for a >>> Rails/Django position, but only want to interview 2 after seeing their >>> resumes... meanwhile you might identity 5 candidates for a Pyramid/Flask >>> position and probably want to bring all of them in. There are definitely a >>> lot more "good" Rails/Django developers than Pyramid/Flask developers -- >>> but you'll have to sort through hundreds of applications or profiles to >>> find them. >>> >>> If you do go the Django/Rails route, I would suggest doing all your >>> recruiting by targeting people through contributions to open source >>> projects. All the best applicants I've met were either active contributors >>> to larger projects, or had a few small (and well written) libraries of >>> their own -- and I could quickly judge if they actually knew Python/Ruby or >>> not. >>> >>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "pylons-discuss" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> <javascript:>. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------ >>> Steve Piercy, Soquel, CA >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "pylons-discuss" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "pylons-discuss" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "pylons-discuss" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pylons-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pylons-discuss" group. 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